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California bans ITT tech from accepting new students

latimes.com

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Re: California bans ITT tech from accepting new students

#91

Post by bhaumik »

ajdlinux wrote: post #45
rahimnathwani wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It seems like many of the more reputable ones don't charge tuition" The only one I know which doesn't charge is 42. Are there others? Which ones?

App Academy charges its tuition as a proportion of first year salary.

+ a $5000 upfront deposit.

We* do the opposite and offer a 100% refund if the student isn't employed as a developer within 6 months of graduation.

As for the original comment, some coding bootcamps are starting to publish stats on graduate rate/outcomes (a few of which are also 3rd-party audited). The industry as a whole still has some bad eggs, but it's getting better.

https://techcrunch.com/2016/06/25/students-are-demanding-the...

*https://www.thinkful.com

Re: California bans ITT tech from accepting new students

#92

Post by ghshephard »

"Last year, it enrolled 45,000 students and reported $850 million in revenue". That's about $19k/year/student. Just to put that in perspective, a 10 day Cisco Network Engineering course from Unitek in the Bay area (last time I took one, great school, at least in network engineering) costs $8,200. The issue isn't the cost, honestly, $19k/year isn't that expensive, the issue is whether they are delivering value for money.

Re: California bans ITT tech from accepting new students

#93

Post by Klinky »

gremlinsinc wrote: post #61
jmcgough wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, these are problems that are present for some other schools, but ITT Tech is far worse. For-profit schools aren't even in the same ballpark as other types of schools, in terms of the default rate. These are businesses where the "admissions counselors" are salespeople who are told to lie to people and strongarm them into attending, taking out massive government loans and effectively stealing money from the federal…

why not allow them to operate instead of force them out--make them pay for all defaulted loans above 8% -- that might make them work harder to get their students gainfully employed so they can cover their loans. -- not that I like ITT, I abhor them, and think that Bootcamps are WAY better in terms of quality education and quality of job prospects.

Would they do that or just become more aggressive at debt collection?

Re: California bans ITT tech from accepting new students

#94

Post by wtvanhest »

gohrt wrote: post #78
pmichaud wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a classic problem. You have a situation where the quality of the thing (in this case teaching) isn't easily known ahead of time, so the success of the organization isn't dependent on the quality of teaching, but instead is dependent on the quality of marketing (roughly). So now you have a bunch of organizations with limited resources competing in the same space, and we'd like it if the organizations who provi…

You're missing a key component: ITT and Phoenix recruit students who don't gain admission to any other public and private schools, a group that is generally of lower general intelligence and critical thinking ability than other college students, and more susceptible to marketing lies. These schools are unlike competitive non-profit and public colleges, in that they are delighted to enroll wholly unqualified students.

pmichaud is likely referring to just the market place of technical schools like ITT/Phoenix etc. and not comparing them to competing with public/private colleges.

The ecosystem for HVAC schools is a competitive one where the winning HVAC program gains on the losers through a marketing advantage, not a teaching advantage.

Re: California bans ITT tech from accepting new students

#95

Post by arundelo »

splicer wrote: post #41
iamdave wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me flip that around and offer that I've had "technical" recruiters fail their end of this transaction as well. One experience involved a recruiter who wanted a compete rewrite of a CV portion outlining a SQL project from planning to continuous implementation models I built. This on top of 8 years of other experience in data design and management. The recruiter wanted to pass on my resume because I had failed to i…

> refusing to hire a qualified electrical engineer because he didn't list AA Batteries on his resume LOL! It won't be long before the majority of EEs under 25 won't even know what an AA battery is. In fact, I bet it would be pretty hard today to find someone in their 20s who knows what a 9-volt is.

I have six young relatives (nephews and a niece) that are all 19 or younger. I'd bet that all of them but maybe the 2-year-old know what a battery (of this type) is and all but the 2-year-old and maybe the 6-year-old can name different types.

Remember, their phones and tablets charge from a cable but their toys and remote controls use 9-volt, AAA, AA, and D batteries.

Edit: I guess you were emphasizing the obscurity of the 9-volt in particular, but I think they probably have several things that use 9-volts.

Re: California bans ITT tech from accepting new students

#96

Post by tn13 »

gremlinsinc wrote: post #61
jmcgough wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, these are problems that are present for some other schools, but ITT Tech is far worse. For-profit schools aren't even in the same ballpark as other types of schools, in terms of the default rate. These are businesses where the "admissions counselors" are salespeople who are told to lie to people and strongarm them into attending, taking out massive government loans and effectively stealing money from the federal…

why not allow them to operate instead of force them out--make them pay for all defaulted loans above 8% -- that might make them work harder to get their students gainfully employed so they can cover their loans. -- not that I like ITT, I abhor them, and think that Bootcamps are WAY better in terms of quality education and quality of job prospects.

Yes this.

The problem here is with the government instead of ITT in my opinion. If you are lending money to someone who is taking significantly more risk it is your fault if the person fails to pay it back and not of the consumer or the business selling the service.

In fact it makes sense for the government to do better credit risk analysis for every college-course-student instead of providing loans for any student, college course. The private banking industry already has this system and it makes sense for government to just leverage that.

Re: California bans ITT tech from accepting new students

#97

Post by SapphireSun »

WhitneyLand wrote: post #84

Btw to avoid confusion I've seen happen when a new guy shows up in the workplace: ITT != IIT ITT = ~University of Phoenix, everyone gets in IIT = Elite programs in a variety of sciences, almost no one gets in

To clarify, IIT is the Indian Institute of Technology, a series of schools that are basically India's MIT as I've had it described to me by people that went there. I had some graduate friends from there while I was in undergrad and they were very bright.

Re: California bans ITT tech from accepting new students

#98

Post by joshmn »

Are they preying on desperate students, or people who are considered "unfavorable" to learning otherwise?

I know a few people who considered ITT. They all have one thing alike: they're not the smartest or most driven of people by any means. (that's two, sorry)

I'm curious... What are their student's standardized test scores, as well as high school records? I'm sure there's a pattern there that can describe some their default rates.

Re: California bans ITT tech from accepting new students

#99

Post by jessedhillon »

gohrt wrote: post #75
jessedhillon wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can we legitimately know whether an ITT grad is sufficiently equivalent to one from a traditional university? The complaints from the state focus default rates, but if there's a hiring bias against hiring for-profit graduates, then default rates are measuring the strength of that bias.

What bias? You can't get a degree in HVAC repair at a traditional university. It's a different labor pool.

Here's ITT's course catalog for their Oakland campus: https://www.itt-tech.edu/campus/download/140.pdf

I'll save you the surprise of discovering that Ctrl+F'ing for "HVAC" yields zero results.

Re: California bans ITT tech from accepting new students

#100

Post by nameless912 »

splicer wrote: post #41
iamdave wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me flip that around and offer that I've had "technical" recruiters fail their end of this transaction as well. One experience involved a recruiter who wanted a compete rewrite of a CV portion outlining a SQL project from planning to continuous implementation models I built. This on top of 8 years of other experience in data design and management. The recruiter wanted to pass on my resume because I had failed to i…

> refusing to hire a qualified electrical engineer because he didn't list AA Batteries on his resume LOL! It won't be long before the majority of EEs under 25 won't even know what an AA battery is. In fact, I bet it would be pretty hard today to find someone in their 20s who knows what a 9-volt is.

Uh....every twentysomething who's living alone has to figure out what a 9-volt is eventually. Fire alarms, yo. I totally get the whole "grizzled old EE" act, but really?
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