Are PhD Students Irrational? • Hacker News Board

Re: Are PhD Students Irrational?

#11

Post by nickff » Tue, Aug 30, 2016, 2:15 AM UTC

GFK_of_xmaspast wrote: post #7

nickff wrote: post #4

Should universities not be held accountable for the fraud that they have perpetrated on their students? The tobacco companies were taken to court because their products had long-term consequences which they persistently minimized, while continuing to push product; it seems universities have done the same. If anything, the universities have better, clearer data than the tobacco companies, and the universities have far…

As a phd holder who knew the dangers going in, I can assure you those were by no means the best years of my life.

I apologize if I was unclear, but I meant that your 20s are generally thought to be 'the best years of your life', and those are precisely the years many spend getting a PhD (thus spoiling the years). Many smokers knew the risks, yet that did not shield the tobacco companies from the prosecutorial ire of the states.

Re: Are PhD Students Irrational?

#12

Post by nickff » Tue, Aug 30, 2016, 2:18 AM UTC

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #6

nickff wrote: post #4

Should universities not be held accountable for the fraud that they have perpetrated on their students? The tobacco companies were taken to court because their products had long-term consequences which they persistently minimized, while continuing to push product; it seems universities have done the same. If anything, the universities have better, clearer data than the tobacco companies, and the universities have far…

You should read the article more closely. It advocates exactly holding universities accountable, and in particular, holding universities accountable for deliberately casualizing academic (ie: PhD-holding) labor by converting tenured professorships into adjunct positions, even while expanding enrollments and using the tuition money to hire more and more administrators. It would be more accurate to say that universitie…

I am making the case for lawsuits with billion dollar settlements or judgements against universities, as well as ongoing concessions. The article advocates what I would describe as 'half-measures', not actual penalties. Many have proposed criminal charges against tobacco company executives, and I see no reason that the university heads should be held to a lower standard.

Re: Are PhD Students Irrational?

#13

Post by sn41 » Tue, Aug 30, 2016, 2:19 AM UTC

I don't see why being irrational is bad. A "labour of love" is precisely something that does not obey the law of diminishing returns. Passion and interest are much more sustaining and fulfilling than a job in the finance sector just because it is highly paid.

I think "rationality" is a stupid assumption, often wrong. Of course, people need more money, but a lot of people are also willing to make sacrifices for something else - spouses, children, parents, religion or country. Money is important, but not the overriding concern for everyone. I often feels that the correct word for a "rational" individual in the sense of economics is "sociopath".

Ralph Nader once said about his organization, that "you can bring your conscience to work" every day. This actually counts for a lot.

However the basic point of the article, that the Universities are conning students is perfectly valid (source: ex-PhD student, can relate to the frustration). This point needs to be better made, avoiding slinging mud on the intellect of the hapless students. This article is an example of how you can write a dubious article, even in the presence of good data.

Re: Are PhD Students Irrational?

#14

Post by red_blobs » Tue, Aug 30, 2016, 2:22 AM UTC

nickff wrote: post #4

Should universities not be held accountable for the fraud that they have perpetrated on their students? The tobacco companies were taken to court because their products had long-term consequences which they persistently minimized, while continuing to push product; it seems universities have done the same. If anything, the universities have better, clearer data than the tobacco companies, and the universities have far…

What ever happened to personal responsibility? It's something that needs to be instilled in our youth before they ever get to college.

I know at least 3 people that knowingly got PHDs in majors that will not amount to any sort of high-paying job. They chose to do this and it's not really the job of the university to determine the market value of their degrees.

Re: Are PhD Students Irrational?

#15

Post by nickff » Tue, Aug 30, 2016, 2:23 AM UTC

red_blobs wrote: post #14

nickff wrote: post #4

Should universities not be held accountable for the fraud that they have perpetrated on their students? The tobacco companies were taken to court because their products had long-term consequences which they persistently minimized, while continuing to push product; it seems universities have done the same. If anything, the universities have better, clearer data than the tobacco companies, and the universities have far…

What ever happened to personal responsibility? It's something that needs to be instilled in our youth before they ever get to college. I know at least 3 people that knowingly got PHDs in majors that will not amount to any sort of high-paying job. They chose to do this and it's not really the job of the university to determine the market value of their degrees.

Those arguments could all be used against the tobbaco company lawsuits too; I am asking what makes them different.

Re: Are PhD Students Irrational?

#16

Post by back_beyond » Tue, Aug 30, 2016, 2:32 AM UTC

jdoliner wrote: post #10

From my reading it seems like the crux of the argument is this: > We’ve presupposed a scenario in which there really is a massive oversupply of PhDs, and thus PhD students must be irrational for treading into an oversupplied labor market. But that’s simply not true. PhD “oversupply” is just a euphemistic way of talking about the fact that colleges and universities haven’t met student-generated demand with a commensur…

You seem to be framing PhDs as terrorists. Why is the university obligated to provide jobs when students come regardless of the extent its faculty is exploited?

Re: Are PhD Students Irrational?

#17

Post by throw_away_777 » Tue, Aug 30, 2016, 2:35 AM UTC

In my experience people don't enter into PhDs expecting to make a lot of money. And STEM PhDs get paid, so it isn't as if we accumulate debt. Often times a PhD is the only route to doing what you love. It isn't possible to do academic research in industry. Personally when I entered into my PhD I really liked that the research I was doing had a noble purpose.

On the other hand, a PhD is way too long. And if you stop at year 4 or so you have basically wasted 4 years. I did not appreciate how much my values would change over time and sort of got locked into trying to finish my PhD. Trying to finish a PhD when you don't have passion for the subject anymore is very stressful. This experience is disturbingly common.

Finally, the author early on implies that the job market for STEM PhDs is not good. At least in physics, this is only true in academia. I know many people who have transitioned successfully to data science, or who have gotten a post doc. Overall, the unemployment rate of physics PhDs is low.

Re: Are PhD Students Irrational?

#18

Post by rahimnathwani » Tue, Aug 30, 2016, 2:40 AM UTC

jdoliner wrote: post #10

From my reading it seems like the crux of the argument is this: > We’ve presupposed a scenario in which there really is a massive oversupply of PhDs, and thus PhD students must be irrational for treading into an oversupplied labor market. But that’s simply not true. PhD “oversupply” is just a euphemistic way of talking about the fact that colleges and universities haven’t met student-generated demand with a commensur…

"universities haven’t met student-generated demand with a commensurate supply of full-time, tenure-track faculty"

This reverses the normal definitions of 'supply' and 'demand' to make a weak point. Universities are the buyers, i.e. they have demand for faculty. The PhD graduates are the suppliers (of their labour), i.e. they can compete to fulfill that demand.

So to say universities have a responsibility to hire people, just because those people want/need jobs, goes against how we normally think about the way the world works.

No one owes me a job.

EDIT: zasz is correct. I read that quotation out of context, and as a result my comment doesn't address the point. I still disagree with the assertion, but for a different reason. Undergraduate students don't demand 'full-time' or 'tenure-track' faculty. Those aspects don't directly affect how well they are taught, or the value of the credentials they gain.

Re: Are PhD Students Irrational?

#19

Post by versteegen » Tue, Aug 30, 2016, 2:41 AM UTC

jdoliner wrote: post #10

From my reading it seems like the crux of the argument is this: > We’ve presupposed a scenario in which there really is a massive oversupply of PhDs, and thus PhD students must be irrational for treading into an oversupplied labor market. But that’s simply not true. PhD “oversupply” is just a euphemistic way of talking about the fact that colleges and universities haven’t met student-generated demand with a commensur…

This is a very long winded article that takes pages to get to the point (the part you quoted). The next sentences ought also to be quoted:

> Instead, we’ve rendered the majority of faculty contingent, increased administrators and administrative staff by 85 and 240 percent, respectively, over the past 40 years, and created a massive holding pen of temporary postdoctoral positions in STEM. If we look outside of academia for good measure, we see similar evidence of increased dependency on contingent labor, decades of stagnant wages, and no increase in leisure time to accompany increases in economic productivity. In this light it becomes harder to claim that PhD students are especially irrational or shortsighted, since so much of the broader US workforce is facing similar problems.

Re: Are PhD Students Irrational?

#20

Post by versteegen » Tue, Aug 30, 2016, 2:42 AM UTC

back_beyond wrote: post #16

jdoliner wrote: post #10

From my reading it seems like the crux of the argument is this: > We’ve presupposed a scenario in which there really is a massive oversupply of PhDs, and thus PhD students must be irrational for treading into an oversupplied labor market. But that’s simply not true. PhD “oversupply” is just a euphemistic way of talking about the fact that colleges and universities haven’t met student-generated demand with a commensur…

You seem to be framing PhDs as terrorists. Why is the university obligated to provide jobs when students come regardless of the extent its faculty is exploited?

See the next sentences in the article (which I quoted above).