Sierra Gets Creative • Hacker News Board

Re: Sierra Gets Creative

#11

Post by frandroid » Mon, Aug 29, 2016, 7:38 PM UTC

danso wrote: post #5

shmerl wrote: post #4

> One could wish that Roberta’s ambivalence about killing her new female heroine at every possible juncture had led her to consider the wisdom of indulging in all that indiscriminate player-killing at all It's interesting, how in comparison in Loom[1], there are practically no such deaths at all. The most that can happen - you'll get stuck with progress and will have to return to previous areas to finish what you mis…

That's the case with virtually every Lucasfilm game I've ever played, including Indiana Jones: Fate of Atlantis, Full Throttle, and Grim Fandango. I believe you can die in the climaxes of those games, otherwise you just get knocked unconscious at worst. That feature was a nice reprieve after playing the Sierra-designed games. Though sometimes the abrupt endings in the Sierra games had their point; for example, forget…

In a LucasFilm game, the inmate would escape and return to where they were hanging out before, and you would have to apprehend them again, as many times as it takes before you remember to secure your weapon before taking the inmate into jail.

Re: Sierra Gets Creative

#12

Post by CaptSpify » Mon, Aug 29, 2016, 7:42 PM UTC

danso wrote: post #2

> Roberta Williams, an example of that rare species of adventure-game designers who don’t actually play adventure games, likely had little idea just how torturous an experience her games actually were. Taken as a whole, Roberta’s consistent failings as a designer seemingly must stem from that inability to place herself in her player’s shoes, and from her own seeming disinterest in improving upon her previous works in…

> All the KQ games do seem poorly designed in retrospect but I do remember chugging through the first few of them through trial and error. I've wondered if that perseverance is something that is part of the stupid bullheadedness of youth (or the weakness of age), or if at the time, we just accepted that games were supposed to be unfair and cruel.

A) We've come a looong way in terms of game abilities, and design. Designers were learning a lot back then.

B) Games were expensive. I couldn't just go buy another game for ~$20 if I didn't like the one I had, so I stuck with it.

C) Games were logistically harder to come buy. I had to go to a store, then pick up a new one. Now I just download a new one without ever putting on pants.

Re: Sierra Gets Creative

#13

Post by logfromblammo » Mon, Aug 29, 2016, 7:53 PM UTC

danso wrote: post #2

> Roberta Williams, an example of that rare species of adventure-game designers who don’t actually play adventure games, likely had little idea just how torturous an experience her games actually were. Taken as a whole, Roberta’s consistent failings as a designer seemingly must stem from that inability to place herself in her player’s shoes, and from her own seeming disinterest in improving upon her previous works in…

I think the canonical example of bad adventure game design is a "puzzle" in the Gabriel Knight series to construct a false mustache to disguise yourself as Lt. Mosely, who does not have a mustache, to commit credit card fraud.

It involves maple syrup and a cat. I remember brute-forcing through it by clicking everything and trying to combine everything with everything else, because online FAQs were not yet commonly available to me at the time. I liked the story enough to plow through the cloudcuckoolander puzzle logic.

After the Sierra games, the last example I can recall of WTF game puzzles was being required to incinerate a bizarrely out-of-place brassiere to get the underwire in Return to Zork. It would appear that either game designers have learned to behave themselves, or that I have stopped playing games that don't make any danged sense.

Re: Sierra Gets Creative

#14

Post by gnarbarian » Mon, Aug 29, 2016, 7:58 PM UTC

danso wrote: post #5

shmerl wrote: post #4

> One could wish that Roberta’s ambivalence about killing her new female heroine at every possible juncture had led her to consider the wisdom of indulging in all that indiscriminate player-killing at all It's interesting, how in comparison in Loom[1], there are practically no such deaths at all. The most that can happen - you'll get stuck with progress and will have to return to previous areas to finish what you mis…

That's the case with virtually every Lucasfilm game I've ever played, including Indiana Jones: Fate of Atlantis, Full Throttle, and Grim Fandango. I believe you can die in the climaxes of those games, otherwise you just get knocked unconscious at worst. That feature was a nice reprieve after playing the Sierra-designed games. Though sometimes the abrupt endings in the Sierra games had their point; for example, forget…

Han would solve it by shooting the inmate first.

Re: Sierra Gets Creative

#15

Post by logfromblammo » Mon, Aug 29, 2016, 8:07 PM UTC

Reedx wrote: post #8

mschuster91 wrote: post #7

Ah, hearing the name "Sierra On-Line" brings back some memories. Caesar, Earth Siege... Does anyone here happen to know where their licensing portfolio/copyrights/code have ended up?

Activision bought Sierra a couple years ago. They revived the brand with a number of new titles and a new King's Quest, but it's been pretty underwhelming so far. :/

Much like Zork. Zork: Grand Inquisitor (1997) was true to its legacy, but Return to Zork (1993) was lackluster, and Zork: Nemesis (1996) could hardly be called a Zork game at all.

After Zork: Grand Inquisitor, I really thought that Activision finally had a handle on the brand they bought, but then they just... stopped. Until 2009, when they licensed the IP to Jolt Online to make a crap browser game.

So I wouldn't expect much from Activision with the Sierra IP.

Re: Sierra Gets Creative

#16

Post by shmerl » Mon, Aug 29, 2016, 8:16 PM UTC

danso wrote: post #5

shmerl wrote: post #4

> One could wish that Roberta’s ambivalence about killing her new female heroine at every possible juncture had led her to consider the wisdom of indulging in all that indiscriminate player-killing at all It's interesting, how in comparison in Loom[1], there are practically no such deaths at all. The most that can happen - you'll get stuck with progress and will have to return to previous areas to finish what you mis…

That's the case with virtually every Lucasfilm game I've ever played, including Indiana Jones: Fate of Atlantis, Full Throttle, and Grim Fandango. I believe you can die in the climaxes of those games, otherwise you just get knocked unconscious at worst. That feature was a nice reprieve after playing the Sierra-designed games. Though sometimes the abrupt endings in the Sierra games had their point; for example, forget…

Yeah, I don't think you can even die in the minefield in Full Throttle (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDpMfjfiqt4).

From reasonable abrupt endings, the most hilarious one was in the Neverhood: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4MARAsx1Vo

Re: Sierra Gets Creative

#17

Post by Jeema101 » Mon, Aug 29, 2016, 8:16 PM UTC

danso wrote: post #2

> Roberta Williams, an example of that rare species of adventure-game designers who don’t actually play adventure games, likely had little idea just how torturous an experience her games actually were. Taken as a whole, Roberta’s consistent failings as a designer seemingly must stem from that inability to place herself in her player’s shoes, and from her own seeming disinterest in improving upon her previous works in…

I remember as kid just being in awe of the game mechanics and the graphics in those Sierra games. It was fun just to explore and type stuff in and see what was possible, even if you had no hope of ever finishing the game.

Re: Sierra Gets Creative

#18

Post by nolok » Mon, Aug 29, 2016, 8:22 PM UTC

gnarbarian wrote: post #14

danso wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the case with virtually every Lucasfilm game I've ever played, including Indiana Jones: Fate of Atlantis, Full Throttle, and Grim Fandango. I believe you can die in the climaxes of those games, otherwise you just get knocked unconscious at worst. That feature was a nice reprieve after playing the Sierra-designed games. Though sometimes the abrupt endings in the Sierra games had their point; for example, forget…

Han would solve it by shooting the inmate first.

Not in the HD re-release he wouldn't

Re: Sierra Gets Creative

#19

Post by djsumdog » Mon, Aug 29, 2016, 8:23 PM UTC

Reedx wrote: post #6

danso wrote: post #2

> Roberta Williams, an example of that rare species of adventure-game designers who don’t actually play adventure games, likely had little idea just how torturous an experience her games actually were. Taken as a whole, Roberta’s consistent failings as a designer seemingly must stem from that inability to place herself in her player’s shoes, and from her own seeming disinterest in improving upon her previous works in…

Same here! I absolutely loved the King's Quest and Space Quest games (and really most of Sierra's adventure games) and have very fond memories of them. Definitely a big part of it was due to the settings, characters and stories. And the interaction and exploration of those worlds... on a computer. Which I was just naturally fascinated by. I was also fascinated by Ken and Roberta's story about creating games from thei…

That entire genre had a lot of issues. People like to talk about the Gabriel Knight 3 / cat hair moustache as being the pivotal moment for the death of adventure games, but really it was all along in the design.

Puzzles were difficult, natural language processing is a hard problems, and commands/grammers could get weird/complex. The icon based point-n-click cleared this up a little, but Sierra had a business model build around needing to order hint books (or play with large groups of people).

No one wants hint books, because once you use one hint, you tend to just keep using them. With the Internet and things like UHS for adventure games, this model kinda hit a wall.

Telltale, Double Fine, et. al. brought this gene back by treating it more as an interactive story. The puzzles were less crazy and you could get through them without a hint guide.

Broken Age is a stealer example of both versions of this genre. Part I is more like Telltale, except with better puzzles. It's easy to get through, but still challenging. Part 2 goes back to the Sierra model though, with puzzles that make little sense and are insolvable for most casual and moderate gamers without a hint guide.

Re: Sierra Gets Creative

#20

Post by djsumdog » Mon, Aug 29, 2016, 8:25 PM UTC

logfromblammo wrote: post #15

Reedx wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Activision bought Sierra a couple years ago. They revived the brand with a number of new titles and a new King's Quest, but it's been pretty underwhelming so far. :/

Much like Zork. Zork: Grand Inquisitor (1997) was true to its legacy, but Return to Zork (1993) was lackluster, and Zork: Nemesis (1996) could hardly be called a Zork game at all. After Zork: Grand Inquisitor, I really thought that Activision finally had a handle on the brand they bought, but then they just... stopped. Until 2009, when they licensed the IP to Jolt Online to make a crap browser game. So I wouldn't exp…

I liked Return to Zork. I thought it was a really well put together game. Nemesis I never got through the first part, but this makes me want to go back and play it as well as Grand Inquisitor.