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Housing Plans in California & New York face resistance from construction unions

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Re: Housing Plans in California & New York face resistance from construction unions

#41
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"helped in the past" != "helpful now" Burning coal has been a tremendous help to society, but that doesn't mean we should continue to do it when we find better alternatives for each of its use cases. Can you name some of the advancements unions have brought to employees in the US over the last 10-20 years? Does that outweigh their anti competitive nature that has led to companies moving manufacturing out of unionized…

Can you name some of the advancements that heirs who have never worked a day in their lives have brought in the US over the last 10-20 years? Who live off the labor of those of us who do work, the labor time of which they expropriate with their dividends and profits? The heirs, the parasites who live off the labor of those of us who do work are the ones who have to explain what good their parasitism is doing in this…

> Who live off the labor of those of us who do work, the labor time of which they expropriate with their dividends and profits?

You know, you certainly don't have to like entitled rich children of millionaires, billionaires, and industrialists. I certainly don't. But this rant confuses me for a few reasons. First, if we have a system where people are allowed to own capital and that's legitimate, doesn't inheritance just follow? I mean, what's the alternative you're after here without heirs? When Steve Jobs died, should the government have taken his shares and distributed to all current Apple employees? (And if so, according to what formula - proportional to pay? time served? the product of the two? equal division?) And why stop at just the shares - what about the shares of other companies, and his houses and cars and any bars of gold he bought with salaries or shares he'd previously sold? Where's the line? How much is the line? Do we redistribute everything to company employees? What about people who own multiple companies? Or maybe being at the company is no part of it - should the government have just auctioned off his estate for the general fund? Doesn't the government already sort of do that when it collects a roughly 50% inheritance tax? Is that not enough? How much exactly is enough? I could go on... Also, all that notwithstanding, morally: isn't that one of the things human beings work for, a good life for their children and grandchildren? If you respect the original industrialist, can you respect this? (If you don't respect the original industrialist, why are we attacking his heirs?)

Second, are they really even all that big of players in the large-corporation ownership scene writ large? Even in the absence of taxes, big inheritances will spread themselves out over several generations unless all rich kids are only children.

> They need us, we don't need them.

Then quit and found your own company.

Re: Housing Plans in California & New York face resistance from construction unions

#42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, support for unions is waning. Here in Philadelphia, union support is at an all time low. They were rendered toothless in recent elections for the first time ever, and a series of bad press (arson, assault, and destruction of property by union members) and continued ties to organized crime have worn thin sympathies. For good reason. They prevent accountability among police: http://reason.com/blog/2014/08/14/poli…

Maybe its because the public looks down upon unions that the middle class is slowly sliding into destitution? [1] [2] I'm definitely not a fan of unions, but besides the movement to push minimum wage up to $15/hr across the country, I don't see any organized groups continuing to push the salary threshold at which overtime pay is required, reducing the number of hours in a work week (which is f___ing insane we're stil…

The $15 minimum wage push by unions is shockingly unethical when they also include a clause allowing for a wage to be negotiated lower than minimum wage as part of a union contact.

It's basically an effort to force the lowest paid most vulnerable workers to have no choice but to join a union if they want to be able to work at all.

Re: Housing Plans in California & New York face resistance from construction unions

#43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, support for unions is waning. Here in Philadelphia, union support is at an all time low. They were rendered toothless in recent elections for the first time ever, and a series of bad press (arson, assault, and destruction of property by union members) and continued ties to organized crime have worn thin sympathies. For good reason. They prevent accountability among police: http://reason.com/blog/2014/08/14/poli…

Maybe its because the public looks down upon unions that the middle class is slowly sliding into destitution? [1] [2] I'm definitely not a fan of unions, but besides the movement to push minimum wage up to $15/hr across the country, I don't see any organized groups continuing to push the salary threshold at which overtime pay is required, reducing the number of hours in a work week (which is f___ing insane we're stil…

Your own source [1] says the middle class is not slipping into destitution at all (look at the graphs, not the mood affiliation). It's slipping into the upper class. We have become wealthier than ever before, it's just that some of us have experienced higher growth rates of wealth.

Re: Housing Plans in California & New York face resistance from construction unions

#44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you name some of the advancements that heirs who have never worked a day in their lives have brought in the US over the last 10-20 years? Who live off the labor of those of us who do work, the labor time of which they expropriate with their dividends and profits? The heirs, the parasites who live off the labor of those of us who do work are the ones who have to explain what good their parasitism is doing in this…

> Who live off the labor of those of us who do work, the labor time of which they expropriate with their dividends and profits? You know, you certainly don't have to like entitled rich children of millionaires, billionaires, and industrialists. I certainly don't. But this rant confuses me for a few reasons. First, if we have a system where people are allowed to own capital and that's legitimate, doesn't inheritance j…

"First, if we have a system where people are allowed to own capital and that's legitimate, doesn't inheritance just follow?"

No, it doesn't necessarily follow. We could have a system based on the idea that people should benefit from their own efforts. You can own capital, well done you, and you can even choose to give your property to other people - it's yours, after all - but giving involves one person losing the benefit of it. Inheritance involves people holding onto things until they don't need it any more, and have no use for it, and whatever happens to it next affects them not at all, but they still want to be able to dictate what happens to it. We could jack up inheritance tax to basically 100%, and still have a society in which people can own capital and we encourage people to benefit from their own efforts.

Re: Housing Plans in California & New York face resistance from construction unions

#45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Who live off the labor of those of us who do work, the labor time of which they expropriate with their dividends and profits? You know, you certainly don't have to like entitled rich children of millionaires, billionaires, and industrialists. I certainly don't. But this rant confuses me for a few reasons. First, if we have a system where people are allowed to own capital and that's legitimate, doesn't inheritance j…

"First, if we have a system where people are allowed to own capital and that's legitimate, doesn't inheritance just follow?" No, it doesn't necessarily follow. We could have a system based on the idea that people should benefit from their own efforts. You can own capital, well done you, and you can even choose to give your property to other people - it's yours, after all - but giving involves one person losing the be…

In this day of clever contracts, I could write one where I co-own my capital until I die. Thus constructing inheritance even if it doesn't generally exist in law. Like charitable remainder trusts etc.

Re: Housing Plans in California & New York face resistance from construction unions

#46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Off the top of my head, try being a non-union Electrician, Plumber, etc. in San Francisco for a day. At the end of that day, you will drop to your knees, and thank god for those lefty unions. At the end of a few years, you just might be able to afford a house. Actually San Francisco has a lot of union jobs, and they arn't moving to China. Personally, I think people in tech will look back, and wish they had some Union…

As far as the union jobs you described, its not actually possible to outsource manual on-site performed labor to overseas. Is that really an accomplishment of unions?

Very possible to import immigrants, illegally or through visas, to labor for below market rates.

Re: Housing Plans in California & New York face resistance from construction unions

#47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"First, if we have a system where people are allowed to own capital and that's legitimate, doesn't inheritance just follow?" No, it doesn't necessarily follow. We could have a system based on the idea that people should benefit from their own efforts. You can own capital, well done you, and you can even choose to give your property to other people - it's yours, after all - but giving involves one person losing the be…

In this day of clever contracts, I could write one where I co-own my capital until I die. Thus constructing inheritance even if it doesn't generally exist in law. Like charitable remainder trusts etc.

We should probably get rid of the charity tax exemption above a small threshold anyway.

Re: Housing Plans in California & New York face resistance from construction unions

#48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you name some of the advancements that heirs who have never worked a day in their lives have brought in the US over the last 10-20 years? Who live off the labor of those of us who do work, the labor time of which they expropriate with their dividends and profits? The heirs, the parasites who live off the labor of those of us who do work are the ones who have to explain what good their parasitism is doing in this…

> Who live off the labor of those of us who do work, the labor time of which they expropriate with their dividends and profits? You know, you certainly don't have to like entitled rich children of millionaires, billionaires, and industrialists. I certainly don't. But this rant confuses me for a few reasons. First, if we have a system where people are allowed to own capital and that's legitimate, doesn't inheritance j…

Inheritance does not naturally follow from the existence of private capital. Just because the state protects wealth earned by someone does not mean it needs to commit to protecting the transfer of that wealth after death.

To the contrary, inheritance is a weird construct. Dead people don't have property rights--inheritence is a whole mechanism to get around that.

Of course if we got rid of inheritance people would just make inter vivos gifts.

Re: Housing Plans in California & New York face resistance from construction unions

#49
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In this day of clever contracts, I could write one where I co-own my capital until I die. Thus constructing inheritance even if it doesn't generally exist in law. Like charitable remainder trusts etc.

We should probably get rid of the charity tax exemption above a small threshold anyway.

It doesn't take charity to hold property in common. Or shares in a corporation with a nominal value of $1. No gift is required I think.

Re: Housing Plans in California & New York face resistance from construction unions

#50
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as the union jobs you described, its not actually possible to outsource manual on-site performed labor to overseas. Is that really an accomplishment of unions?

Very possible to import immigrants, illegally or through visas, to labor for below market rates.

If they're willing to labor for those rates, they are "market" by definition.
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