Why prisons continue to grow, even when crime declines • Hacker News Board

Re: Why prisons continue to grow, even when crime declines

#61

Post by yummyfajitas » Sat, Aug 27, 2016, 4:06 AM UTC

drawkbox wrote: post #10

gok wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Drug crimes cover only 16% of inmates in US state prisons [1]. It's higher in Federal institutions, but that's only about 15% of total inmates. I don't disagree that many drug offenders probably shouldn't be in jail, but the US could release all of them and we'd still have the highest incarceration rate in the world. [1] http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/p13.pdf (table 13)

Take another look at this data from same source regarding Federal instead of State: Half of males (50%) and more than half of females (59%) in federal prison were serving time for drug offenses on September 30, 2014. [1] [1] http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/p14.pdf How many started that way or their crime involved weapons/money that were involved in a drug operation? How many repeat or lifetime criminals were first…

There are 200k federal prisoners out of about 1600k total. The fact that federal numbers are 50% drugs doesn't change the fact that the overall numbers.

If we let out our non-violent criminals, then the prison population will only be cut by half. The majority of people in prison are violent criminals.

Re: Why prisons continue to grow, even when crime declines

#62

Post by koenigdavidmj » Sat, Aug 27, 2016, 4:59 AM UTC

Clubber wrote: post #59

utternerd wrote: post #4

Stop throwing people in jail for "moral crimes" such as drug use, and we'd see a massive decline. Victimless crimes, such as contempt of court for not being "respectful" enough of a sitting judge, or the like should never send you to a cage either. One could make a massive list of the ridiculous uses of our criminal justice system, and sadly many don't see it as a problem.

I read an article the other day where police placed a bicycle unlocked in a public place, then watched it. Once someone took off with it, they arrested him. Since he didn't plea bargain, the judge gave him 3 years. A couple things: 1. I would think either a fine or a 30 day sentence is more than enough. 2. I think it's bad for society in general for police to actively bait people into committing crimes. 3. That's abo…

Bike thieves have no fear in most cities, even when it's a $500+ bike (that is, any bike not purchased at Walmart). That's not easy to replace for most people, even engineers. Locking up bike thieves is plenty productive.

Re: Why prisons continue to grow, even when crime declines

#63

Post by gajjanag » Sat, Aug 27, 2016, 5:07 AM UTC

Clubber wrote: post #59

utternerd wrote: post #4

Stop throwing people in jail for "moral crimes" such as drug use, and we'd see a massive decline. Victimless crimes, such as contempt of court for not being "respectful" enough of a sitting judge, or the like should never send you to a cage either. One could make a massive list of the ridiculous uses of our criminal justice system, and sadly many don't see it as a problem.

I read an article the other day where police placed a bicycle unlocked in a public place, then watched it. Once someone took off with it, they arrested him. Since he didn't plea bargain, the judge gave him 3 years. A couple things: 1. I would think either a fine or a 30 day sentence is more than enough. 2. I think it's bad for society in general for police to actively bait people into committing crimes. 3. That's abo…

> 1. I would think either a fine or a 30 day sentence is more than enough.

What makes you think this will deter them from repeating the crime in the future? For a drug addict in search of a fix, bicycles have high liquidity on the market, are easily stolen, and usually not caught. Drug habits are not easy to kick away.

Note that I am not saying that long prison sentences are an answer for this, just pointing out that a fine/30 day sentence will likely not work.

Re: Why prisons continue to grow, even when crime declines

#64

Post by jchendy » Sat, Aug 27, 2016, 5:14 AM UTC

gajjanag wrote: post #63

Clubber wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read an article the other day where police placed a bicycle unlocked in a public place, then watched it. Once someone took off with it, they arrested him. Since he didn't plea bargain, the judge gave him 3 years. A couple things: 1. I would think either a fine or a 30 day sentence is more than enough. 2. I think it's bad for society in general for police to actively bait people into committing crimes. 3. That's abo…

> 1. I would think either a fine or a 30 day sentence is more than enough. What makes you think this will deter them from repeating the crime in the future? For a drug addict in search of a fix, bicycles have high liquidity on the market, are easily stolen, and usually not caught. Drug habits are not easy to kick away. Note that I am not saying that long prison sentences are an answer for this, just pointing out that…

What does a 3 year prison sentence accomplish that 30 days wouldn't?

Re: Why prisons continue to grow, even when crime declines

#65

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Aug 27, 2016, 5:14 AM UTC

gajjanag wrote: post #63

Clubber wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read an article the other day where police placed a bicycle unlocked in a public place, then watched it. Once someone took off with it, they arrested him. Since he didn't plea bargain, the judge gave him 3 years. A couple things: 1. I would think either a fine or a 30 day sentence is more than enough. 2. I think it's bad for society in general for police to actively bait people into committing crimes. 3. That's abo…

> 1. I would think either a fine or a 30 day sentence is more than enough. What makes you think this will deter them from repeating the crime in the future? For a drug addict in search of a fix, bicycles have high liquidity on the market, are easily stolen, and usually not caught. Drug habits are not easy to kick away. Note that I am not saying that long prison sentences are an answer for this, just pointing out that…

[deleted]

Re: Why prisons continue to grow, even when crime declines

#66

Post by Clubber » Sat, Aug 27, 2016, 5:14 AM UTC

gajjanag wrote: post #63

Clubber wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read an article the other day where police placed a bicycle unlocked in a public place, then watched it. Once someone took off with it, they arrested him. Since he didn't plea bargain, the judge gave him 3 years. A couple things: 1. I would think either a fine or a 30 day sentence is more than enough. 2. I think it's bad for society in general for police to actively bait people into committing crimes. 3. That's abo…

> 1. I would think either a fine or a 30 day sentence is more than enough. What makes you think this will deter them from repeating the crime in the future? For a drug addict in search of a fix, bicycles have high liquidity on the market, are easily stolen, and usually not caught. Drug habits are not easy to kick away. Note that I am not saying that long prison sentences are an answer for this, just pointing out that…

I think a prison sentence on someone's record will make them more likely to repeat the crime. With the criminal record, minimum wage, or close to, are the only options available.

Also, it's human nature to believe you won't get caught. If someone thought they were likely to get caught, they wouldn't do it.

Thirdly, what makes you think a 3 year sentence would deter someone from doing it any more than a 30 day sentence would? I'm sure the person didn't even realize stealing a bicycle carried a 3 year sentence. For deterrence to work, a person must know the punishment for the crime. Also, the 3 year sentence doesn't fit the crime. At some point, it becomes cruel and unusual. I think locking a person up for 3 years for stealing an unlocked bicycle that the police planted trying to bait someone into stealing it is cruel and certainly unusual. It's also pretty darn close to entrapment.

What if police left a penny on the sidewalk and arrested anyone who picked it up and locked them away for 3 years? How much different is that from the scenario I described? How about a quarter? How about a $20? What denomination would make 3 years and arguable entrapment acceptable?

Finally, we have a deterrence paradox. If the US houses the largest prison population in the world, why are there people still stealing bicycles? On the other hand, if crime is at an all time low, why are we still locking people up at an increasing rate every year?

Re: Why prisons continue to grow, even when crime declines

#67

Post by Clubber » Sat, Aug 27, 2016, 5:15 AM UTC

koenigdavidmj wrote: post #62

Clubber wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read an article the other day where police placed a bicycle unlocked in a public place, then watched it. Once someone took off with it, they arrested him. Since he didn't plea bargain, the judge gave him 3 years. A couple things: 1. I would think either a fine or a 30 day sentence is more than enough. 2. I think it's bad for society in general for police to actively bait people into committing crimes. 3. That's abo…

Bike thieves have no fear in most cities, even when it's a $500+ bike (that is, any bike not purchased at Walmart). That's not easy to replace for most people, even engineers. Locking up bike thieves is plenty productive.

If it was, why are there so many bike thieves?

Re: Why prisons continue to grow, even when crime declines

#68

Post by Evolved » Sat, Aug 27, 2016, 5:35 AM UTC

drawkbox wrote: post #10

gok wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Drug crimes cover only 16% of inmates in US state prisons [1]. It's higher in Federal institutions, but that's only about 15% of total inmates. I don't disagree that many drug offenders probably shouldn't be in jail, but the US could release all of them and we'd still have the highest incarceration rate in the world. [1] http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/p13.pdf (table 13)

Take another look at this data from same source regarding Federal instead of State: Half of males (50%) and more than half of females (59%) in federal prison were serving time for drug offenses on September 30, 2014. [1] [1] http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/p14.pdf How many started that way or their crime involved weapons/money that were involved in a drug operation? How many repeat or lifetime criminals were first…

I don't know that you're considering a couple things: 1. people are locked up not just to punish them since they committed a crime but also to keep society just that much safer from that criminal and 2. you assume most people have sufficient insurance to replace their stolen vehicle and that they have alternate transportation to get to their job or to pick up/drop off their kids. I know folks with liability only insurance that just barely scrape by and if they didn't have their car for just 1 day they wouldn't be able to do the things I listed.

Criminals do work in prison as well such as producing goods (various forms of apparel) or performing services (landscaping and picking up trash). Considering they're not entitled to minimum wage, their cost of labor is extremely low and one doesn't need to sell a given product for much of a high price at all to make a profit. That profit gets reinvested back into the economy in one form or another so I'd argue the taxpayers are getting most, if not all, of their money back.

Furthermore, those who resort to stealing cars seem to have decided they're not going to get an honest job and since the car-stealing business probably isn't very consistent compared to working a retail job then I'd argue they don't have the requisite history of pay that affords them the ability to repay their debt to society.

Re: Why prisons continue to grow, even when crime declines

#69

Post by Evolved » Sat, Aug 27, 2016, 7:01 AM UTC

Most, if not all, of this can be avoided first and foremost by not committing the crime to begin with. That starts with having quality parents instilling the right vales in their children and making sure they get a quality education at least through high school. Furthermore, it has been asserted that college isn't even a guarantee but learning the trades can be much more beneficial to gainful employment.

Re: Why prisons continue to grow, even when crime declines

#70

Post by Evolved » Sat, Aug 27, 2016, 7:04 AM UTC

Clubber wrote: post #59

utternerd wrote: post #4

Stop throwing people in jail for "moral crimes" such as drug use, and we'd see a massive decline. Victimless crimes, such as contempt of court for not being "respectful" enough of a sitting judge, or the like should never send you to a cage either. One could make a massive list of the ridiculous uses of our criminal justice system, and sadly many don't see it as a problem.

I read an article the other day where police placed a bicycle unlocked in a public place, then watched it. Once someone took off with it, they arrested him. Since he didn't plea bargain, the judge gave him 3 years. A couple things: 1. I would think either a fine or a 30 day sentence is more than enough. 2. I think it's bad for society in general for police to actively bait people into committing crimes. 3. That's abo…

I agree that leaving a bike unattended to bait someone to steal it isn't fair since there might be a non-insignificant number of people who wouldn't normally steal the bike but perhaps would rather ride than walk and would then feel guilty and ditch the bike a few blocks later.

However, there are also professional bike thieves who break into alcoves, garages, etc.; They also cut locks and/or beat up or knock down riders if they can't get the bike by waiting. My point is, not all bike thieves are the same and if someone didn't fit the profile of a typical bike thief then instead of arresting them, cite them. I'm sure most people who are not thieves but who stole a bike as a crime of opportunity would not do it again if it cost them as much as running a red light does.