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Why prisons continue to grow, even when crime declines

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Re: Why prisons continue to grow, even when crime declines

#51

Post by rayiner »

makecheck wrote: post #32
rayiner wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Contempt of court is not a victimless crime. Nobody gets sent to jail just for being disrespectful--they get held in contempt for disrupting the process other people rely on to adjudicate their rights.

Lots of other ways to handle it though. They could: - Have a “lose your turn” approach (toss your case to the bottom of the pile and keep moving the others through, until you cool down). - Ignore you and restate the question/statement that preceded the contempt of court. If it persists, then escalate. - Give a fine; $50 ought to dissuade most people from continuing to cause a problem. In fact, they could do just abou…

You're arguing against a straw man. There is a lot that happens before someone gets held in contempt, and even then the usual solution is a fine ("$1,000 for every day you refuse to comply with the order") not jail time.

But the threat of criminal contempt is absolutely necessary. Judges have to be able to do things like get CEOs of multi-billion dollar companies to hand over documents or testify about things that could cost their companies a lot of money. They have to order construction halted on a multi-billion theme park to protect endangered frogs. Fines aren't going to get that done. The fear of being sent to jail will.

As a practical matter it almost never comes to that. And even when it does, it's subject to review like any other charge.

Re: Why prisons continue to grow, even when crime declines

#52

Post by mveety »

jchendy wrote: post #44
pcardh0 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I want them locked up, so they don't commit more crimes. Obviously the police don't catch every criminal that commits every crime. So catching them and locking them prevents them from committing more crimes.

> I want them locked up, so they don't commit more crimes. Do you have evidence that prison actually reduces future crimes?

I think he's getting at the fact that if they're in a cage they can't commit crimes while in there (sorta). Recidivism rates would suggest that prison doesn't actually do much to prevent future crime unless they're physically in the prison.

Re: Why prisons continue to grow, even when crime declines

#53

Post by mveety »

pcardh0 wrote: post #48
drawkbox wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fines, repeated violations rise up the amount and possibly barring licenses, restraining orders, rehab programs, mental health, and more. Until it is violent there should not be an authority abducting and locking up someone causing tax payer dollars to be further wasted and creating more problems.

So under your system, a person can steal without the threat of jail so long as they don't do it violently. Hard to see the downsides of such a system.

I'm not entirely convinced that it's the threat of punishment that stops criminals. Going on the criminals I know (crap evidence, I know), excluding the total psychopaths, what has stopped them is guilt for hurting people and/or wanting to be a better role model to their kids/siblings/younger kids that look up to them. All that the justice system seems to do is take away their ability to make legal income and years of their life.

For the criminals lacking empathy, I don't know of a good solution to preventing them from hurting people.

Re: Why prisons continue to grow, even when crime declines

#54

Post by yazaddaruvala »

drawkbox wrote: post #28
yazaddaruvala wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it violent to sell drugs/alcohol to a minor? Does "violent" cover emotional abuse? How would you rather deal with such crimes?

Fines, repeated violations rise up the amount and possibly barring licenses, restraining orders, rehab programs, mental health, and more. Until it is violent there should not be an authority abducting and locking up someone causing tax payer dollars to be further wasted and creating more problems.

Fines? - People who steal or sell drugs, do it because they believe they can't survive any other way! Additionally, what if people cannot and do not pay fines? You have a recursive problem right? Are you gonna fine people who cannot pay a fine? Or would you like to add an amendment to your system to put people who cannot afford fines in jail?

Barring licenses? - Why do they need licenses? If they get caught, they'll just "pay" a fine right?

Restraining orders? - Why would they accommodate?

Rehab programs? - Isn't this what prison[0] is supposed to be? Or are you suggesting they can walk out at any time (including before being taken there)?

Mental health? - Isn't this just prison[0] with pills? Or are you suggesting they can walk out at any time (including before being taken there)?

Please don't misunderstand me, I respect and would love to see a better system. I'm even convinced you're on the right path. I just don't think its as easy as you seemed to state.

[0] Where prison is defined: "something that locks you up"

Re: Why prisons continue to grow, even when crime declines

#55

Post by drawkbox »

yazaddaruvala wrote: post #54
drawkbox wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fines, repeated violations rise up the amount and possibly barring licenses, restraining orders, rehab programs, mental health, and more. Until it is violent there should not be an authority abducting and locking up someone causing tax payer dollars to be further wasted and creating more problems.

Fines? - People who steal or sell drugs, do it because they believe they can't survive any other way! Additionally, what if people cannot and do not pay fines? You have a recursive problem right? Are you gonna fine people who cannot pay a fine? Or would you like to add an amendment to your system to put people who cannot afford fines in jail? Barring licenses? - Why do they need licenses? If they get caught, they'll…

The alternative is locking them up and creating lifetime criminals.

We need to separate criminals and give them new communities to find worth in for the most part. Most people don't commit crimes because they want to. If you can separate them from the criminal element, find worth and independence, that is the solution.

I think putting them up with other criminals is like a crime university, it will be all they know. Prison is supposed to be rehabilitation but it creates hardened criminal elements.

Your better system is taking people and locking them up together and then charging the tax payer 30k per annum, even if they pay no fines they are still causing less budget.

There aren't any easy solutions but that is mostly wrong for non-violent and low level offenses like drug crimes.

This Norway prison has prisoners work on a farm/island as an example of a new community. [1] It has some of the lowest recidivism in the world. Sometimes people in poverty have never been treated like humans, maybe if you apply this to them then certainly a percentage would see worth. The other harsher ways are creating more re-offenders in the US system (the main problem of this article).

[1] http://www.cnn.com/2012/05/24/world/europe/norway-prison-bas...

Re: Why prisons continue to grow, even when crime declines

#56

Post by dllthomas »

tptacek wrote: post #34
makecheck wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lots of other ways to handle it though. They could: - Have a “lose your turn” approach (toss your case to the bottom of the pile and keep moving the others through, until you cool down). - Ignore you and restate the question/statement that preceded the contempt of court. If it persists, then escalate. - Give a fine; $50 ought to dissuade most people from continuing to cause a problem. In fact, they could do just abou…

How does sending a case to the bottom of the pile not also penalize the adversary of the person disrupting the court?

In fact, delay is often in the interest of one or the other party.

Re: Why prisons continue to grow, even when crime declines

#57

Post by rabboRubble »

Many of the people coming in front of courts have a lengthy criminal history. What it says to me is that our criminal justice system is failing at one of its primary missions: rehabilitation. We have turned prisons into for-profit centers with no incentive towards rehabilitation. Pair that with the US public's interest in punishment to the exclusion of rehabilitation, you end up with frequent flyers.

Re: Why prisons continue to grow, even when crime declines

#58

Post by jchendy »

mveety wrote: post #52
jchendy wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I want them locked up, so they don't commit more crimes. Do you have evidence that prison actually reduces future crimes?

I think he's getting at the fact that if they're in a cage they can't commit crimes while in there (sorta). Recidivism rates would suggest that prison doesn't actually do much to prevent future crime unless they're physically in the prison.

> I think he's getting at the fact that if they're in a cage they can't commit crimes while in there

Yeah, that's what I suspected. To me, that line of thinking feels short-sighted and/or motivated by revenge rather than rationality.

Re: Why prisons continue to grow, even when crime declines

#59

Post by Clubber »

utternerd wrote: post #4

Stop throwing people in jail for "moral crimes" such as drug use, and we'd see a massive decline. Victimless crimes, such as contempt of court for not being "respectful" enough of a sitting judge, or the like should never send you to a cage either. One could make a massive list of the ridiculous uses of our criminal justice system, and sadly many don't see it as a problem.

I read an article the other day where police placed a bicycle unlocked in a public place, then watched it. Once someone took off with it, they arrested him. Since he didn't plea bargain, the judge gave him 3 years.

A couple things:

1. I would think either a fine or a 30 day sentence is more than enough.

2. I think it's bad for society in general for police to actively bait people into committing crimes.

3. That's about $150,000 of taxpayer dollars for a $100 bicycle.

4. Unrelated but important. In the US, it's legal for police to lie to you about your rights, what evidence they have, or anything really. I believe that is bad for society as well.

Re: Why prisons continue to grow, even when crime declines

#60

Post by l0neranger »

biot wrote: post #35
drawkbox wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you rather they pay you back than cause 30k+ per year to the taxpayer. How about they are in a job program and earn it back for you and garnished wages until it is paid. Also did you have insurance? Did it cover it? Do you need someone locked in a box for years because of it? Is it that level of crime? What if you have a son and he did it, would you want him turned into a lifetime criminal? Our current system i…

There's a difference between Jean Valjean stealing a loaf of bread to feed his sister's dying child and an organized crew which makes a living from robbing houses. The former is a great candidate for a job program. The latter already have their own job problem; it's just rather antisocial.

There's not enough jobs as it is, why should Criminals get jobs, when lawful citizens can't find employment? But I'll entertain your idea.

Say Jean valjean stole a loaf of bread to feed his family (highly unlikely), then let's make the punishment of his crime, to replenish that item by working (but not like labor camps of course). Jean would have to work on a farm, planting seeds, pulling weeds from the wheat field, in the hot sun along side illegal immigrants. That should be punishment enough right? But before he could return to normal American life, he'd first have to sign a promissory note to his allegiance with the Democratic party . Sounds like awin-win. Who needs food stamps? Ah so here we are, reducing illegal immigration while helping poor Jean recover himself. Let's send a letter to Congress.

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