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ITT is no longer allowed to enroll students who rely on federal loans and grants

washingtonpost.com

61–70 of 142 posts

Re: ITT is no longer allowed to enroll students who rely on federal loans and grants

#61
post #22
post #14

This is incremental progress, it's just one school. But a crazy step in the right direction. For-Profit institutions are a plague on our nation (high-cost low-value educations) allowed to rise up out of the failings of our strained public institutions (not enough capacity to meet demand). What really blows my mind is that this seems to come after the justice department discontinues for profit federal prisons. It's li…

In principle there's nothing wrong with for-profit schools which train people on specific job skills or certification programs. There are some valuable skills that non-profit community colleges can't practically teach. But still the federal government should only support financial aid for such schools if they demonstrate a high rate of job placement for students who complete the program.

Absolutely - if you can be both regionally and nationally accredited go for it.

But most of these schools are in the "credits earned may not transfer" class, at which point the only thing you have going for you is vocational (which has merit). But if you're a hybrid or a degree awarding institution that no other schools recognize, then that's a problem and there's near zero value to what you're offering (which isn't to make it sound cliquey, but still).

Re: ITT is no longer allowed to enroll students who rely on federal loans and grants

#62
post #43

I'm torn on this. Understand, I have little love for ITT, and I got my 4 year degree from there. In hindsight, I wish I'd done community college and the local university instead. I honestly believe I'd have had a better curriculum, better books and a better ratio of instructors who cared to ones who didn't. I believe I'd have had to take on less student loan debt, as well. That said, suppose ITT Tech does lose its ac…

[deleted]

Re: ITT is no longer allowed to enroll students who rely on federal loans and grants

#63
post #14

This is incremental progress, it's just one school. But a crazy step in the right direction. For-Profit institutions are a plague on our nation (high-cost low-value educations) allowed to rise up out of the failings of our strained public institutions (not enough capacity to meet demand). What really blows my mind is that this seems to come after the justice department discontinues for profit federal prisons. It's li…

> For-Profit institutions are a plague on our nation

I dont understand. ANY for profit? Like Apple or Ford?

Or just educational institutions? If just educational institutions, what is special about that sector that makes them a plague?

Re: ITT is no longer allowed to enroll students who rely on federal loans and grants

#64
post #55
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is informational asymmetry in every transaction (as well as in non-profit schools); this is a red herring (unless you can show that it is causing a specific, large, unsolved problem). The current administration has repeatedly demonstrated hostility towards for-profit schools, and has chosen to use discretionary enforcement of rules against them rather than enforcing standards universally, because they know that…

The existence of information asymmetry isn't per se the problem, no, of course not. But it's not a red herring to mention if we can look at the world and see the information asymmetry doing active harm, which I think most commenters here would agree with. The opinion that large numbers of for-profit schools are convincing people to give them money and then providing almost nothing useful in return is so widespread no…

I would agree that "[t]he opinion that large numbers of... schools are convincing people to give them money and then providing almost nothing useful in return is so widespread now that I'd assume it to be everyone's default unless they specifically mention otherwise." According to the signalling theory of education and the opinion of many commenters here, a great deal (possibly a strong majority) of post-secondary education is a complete waste of time and money. It's not that I think these schools are providing useless experience and knowledge, I just think the non-profits are doing about the same.

Re: ITT is no longer allowed to enroll students who rely on federal loans and grants

#65
post #14

This is incremental progress, it's just one school. But a crazy step in the right direction. For-Profit institutions are a plague on our nation (high-cost low-value educations) allowed to rise up out of the failings of our strained public institutions (not enough capacity to meet demand). What really blows my mind is that this seems to come after the justice department discontinues for profit federal prisons. It's li…

> For-Profit institutions are a plague on our nation I dont understand. ANY for profit? Like Apple or Ford? Or just educational institutions? If just educational institutions, what is special about that sector that makes them a plague?

Plus anyone who thinks that "Public" schools are not for profit hasn't looked too closely.

My "Public" University was basically a football program which had classes to try and justify its existence.

Think Stanford isn't for profit? Harvard? University of California?

The only difference is who is making the profit an what their incentives are.

ITT doesn't make money if its students don't get jobs. Does UC Santa Cruz really care more?

Re: ITT is no longer allowed to enroll students who rely on federal loans and grants

#66

A few years ago I had to make several hires in cities away from the main operations of our business. These were technical positions, but not really highly skilled positions - think geek squad level proficiency. Many of the candidates came out of ITT, and to be honest they were among the best candidates for this level position, or at least they interviewed the best. I got the impression that ITT spends a lot of time r…

What were the three questions?

Re: ITT is no longer allowed to enroll students who rely on federal loans and grants

#67
post #14

This is incremental progress, it's just one school. But a crazy step in the right direction. For-Profit institutions are a plague on our nation (high-cost low-value educations) allowed to rise up out of the failings of our strained public institutions (not enough capacity to meet demand). What really blows my mind is that this seems to come after the justice department discontinues for profit federal prisons. It's li…

> For-Profit institutions are a plague on our nation I dont understand. ANY for profit? Like Apple or Ford? Or just educational institutions? If just educational institutions, what is special about that sector that makes them a plague?

The decision is specifically targeting for-profit degree mills.

The problem is that these institutions provide expensive educations, paid for by people taking out student loans (which the institutions actively encourage). However, these same institutions don't provide any sort of education that would give their students even a remote chance of paying off the student loans on any reasonable timeframe.

This creates a system of perverse incentives where the degree mill is essentially farming student loan money, screwing over both the student and the government in the process.

My read on the news is that the policy is supposed to stop exactly this phenomenon.

Re: ITT is no longer allowed to enroll students who rely on federal loans and grants

#68
post #43

I'm torn on this. Understand, I have little love for ITT, and I got my 4 year degree from there. In hindsight, I wish I'd done community college and the local university instead. I honestly believe I'd have had a better curriculum, better books and a better ratio of instructors who cared to ones who didn't. I believe I'd have had to take on less student loan debt, as well. That said, suppose ITT Tech does lose its ac…

Degrees from these sorts of institutions are already arguably a black mark. I've seen this come up a few times in /r/sysadmin, and to some people, attending a school like ITT displays a shocking inability to do even the most cursory research before making a huge life decision. Fair or not, you can be almost certain you are not being considered for some positions because you attended ITT.

Re: ITT is no longer allowed to enroll students who rely on federal loans and grants

#69
post #43

I'm torn on this. Understand, I have little love for ITT, and I got my 4 year degree from there. In hindsight, I wish I'd done community college and the local university instead. I honestly believe I'd have had a better curriculum, better books and a better ratio of instructors who cared to ones who didn't. I believe I'd have had to take on less student loan debt, as well. That said, suppose ITT Tech does lose its ac…

Your degree is still technically valid because it was given while ITT still had its accreditation.

This might be a very cynical response, but... I don't think it would be more of a black mark on your resume than it already was. There's already a strong stigma against ITT for mostly the same reasons that ITT might lose accreditation.

Re: ITT is no longer allowed to enroll students who rely on federal loans and grants

#70
post #22
post #14

This is incremental progress, it's just one school. But a crazy step in the right direction. For-Profit institutions are a plague on our nation (high-cost low-value educations) allowed to rise up out of the failings of our strained public institutions (not enough capacity to meet demand). What really blows my mind is that this seems to come after the justice department discontinues for profit federal prisons. It's li…

In principle there's nothing wrong with for-profit schools which train people on specific job skills or certification programs. There are some valuable skills that non-profit community colleges can't practically teach. But still the federal government should only support financial aid for such schools if they demonstrate a high rate of job placement for students who complete the program.

How about let individuals decide if a school is good, and not the federal government? AKA Capitalism.
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