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Web Scraping in 2016

franciskim.co

371–380 of 402 posts

Re: Web Scraping in 2016

#371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> To fight scrapers, we show some values as images that look like text You are fighting screen readers more than anything; as well as legitimate plugins, form autofills, etc. If this is for captcha, you are fighting all the users as well. > And we insert random (non-visible) html and css classes in our site to screw with em, and use randomized css classnames. Legitimate browser plugins, etc. I'd just use electron or…

> What you effectively doing is wasting time on useless stuff. This is even more useless than trying to prevent copying of DVDs or pirating games. Can you be so sure? The Union blockade of the Confederacy had plenty of holes, and smugglers / privateers / blockade-runners made good money getting through (when they survived) ... but that doesn't mean the blockade wasn't effective all the same at weakening the Confedera…

Only one guy has to beat it for it to be widely disseminated, though.

Re: Web Scraping in 2016

#372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Thus, if you take a photograph of a building built in 1991 and the year is not yet 2111, there is a chance that the architect can claim infringement. The architect can claim infringement all they want, they don't have a case. From https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/120 : The copyright in an architectural work that has been constructed does not include the right to prevent the making, distributing, or public…

Thanks for pointing this out. I had run across this before, but I guess I disregarded it as I felt that for many uses, "ordinarily visible from a public place" is vague and would still result in an action where one would be forced to prove that the depicted building is ordinarily visible from a public place in court. I would like to know if a "public place" means exclusively public property or if it means private pro…

"Public place" is indeed a vague term. In some statutes, it has a definition that includes publically accessible private property such as common areas of businesses, hospitals, etc. Does it include places where access depends on payment of a fee? How high above the ground do public places extend (thinking of photography drones)?

See also https://mentalhealthcop.wordpress.com/2013/09/20/place-to-wh... which shows the same ambiguity exists in the UK.

Re: Web Scraping in 2016

#373
post #341
post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To see the terms that Google thinks you have agreed to, click 'Terms' at the bottom of www.google.com If that doesn't hold up in court, in future on your first visit to Google it will simply display some text and require that you click 'I agree' to continue. Either way, it seems reasonable to me that you should agree to their terms in order to use their service.

So if instead I scrape their site (like they are scraping others) I don't have any opportunity to agree to their terms? Much like their scrapers on other sites? I'm honestly wondering about the double standard. There is a rational way to discuss morality/ethics and subsequent laws regarding most technical aspects, that often mirrors real world (read: offline/analog) scenarios. It's unfortunate that the legal system h…

There's no double standard. In the case of crawling and scraping their site the terms are available in the robots.txt file. And Google abide by the robots.txt terms of other websites.

I'm not sure why you dislike this 'appropriated by lawyers' outcome: For web crawling look at robots.txt, for other uses look at the Terms link on the homepage. If you don't agree to the terms then stop accessing the website. Seems straightforward and fair to me.

Re: Web Scraping in 2016

#374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but they do not have the right to retroactively declare you as having been trespassing, nor even to preemptively put up a "no photography" sign and have you arrested for trespassing if you disobey it. The entire point of protocols is to precisely define the terms of communication. The status code is '200 OK', not '200 OK/Asterisk'. But of course if lawlers didn't force themselves into the situation, they'd be o…

The protocol is also that you send a valid, non-faked User-Agent: "The User-Agent request-header field contains information about the user agent originating the request. This is for [...] the tracing of protocol violations [...]. User agents SHOULD include this field with requests" Many scrapers disregard this part of the protocol. Of course, whether a headless browser should send a different UA is an interesting que…

User-Agent is a SHOULD, not a MUST. There are also practically no browsers that send a non-fake User-Agent, since they almost all claim to be Mozilla/5.0.

Re: Web Scraping in 2016

#375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Try using google from a fresh install, they´ll force you to accept their TOS.

Are they A/B testing this or is acceptance IP-based? I reinstalled recently and I didn't see it. Firefox in private navigation mode also lets me use it without forcing me to agree with anything.

Lucky you. I get their stupid modal overlay more often than I'm happy with. On top of that it now usually defaults to Dutch and Dutch results even when I don't want this. Highly annoying.

Re: Web Scraping in 2016

#376
post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You claimed "[Google] infringes on copyright as a matter of course" despite the many real civil cases (previously cited) which have found these very activities to be non-infringing. And then, strangely you claimed: >Fair use is a case-by-case basis, so you can't say that Google's infringing conduct is generally accepted to be fair use. There is so much wrong with this statement. For one, how can you call something in…

First, IANAL, so my use of some terms may be loose. I never intend to convey more than an informed layman's opinion. However, I do love it when I'm corrected so that my usage can improve. Fair use is an affirmative defense. Google admits that it copies content without legal license to do so, but claims that said copies are non-infringing under fair use exemptions. I guess you're probably correct that it's no longer a…

What you've failed to mention is the criteria used to determine if a usage is indeed "fair". There are 4 basic criteria[0] but can be summarized as "If the usage doesn't affect the market for the original work, is substantially transformative, is proportionally insignificant or is used for critique/parody then it is fair". Or, at the risk of over simplifying it: "Does the usage grant a net public benefit without significantly hurting the copyright holders ability to make money?".

>Can I send an email to Netflix and tell them "Hey, if you don't want me to copy your shows, please add this in your page's HEAD element: "?

Actually, under fair use you certainly can make a personal copy (see Betamax case). If you distribute the work you would likely run afoul of the criteria summarized above.

The robots.txt relevancy is being over stated in your argument. The main criteria used in this case is summarized above. The fact that Google provides an opt-out mechanism is a secondary, supporting argument.

>What if I started indexing and rehosting thumbnails? I can assure you that I would get C&D'd almost immediately

A determination of infringement would depend entirely on the context as related to the afore mentioned criteria. The fact that someone might try to sue is a product of the terrible system in general and you're absolutely right - as with any legal matter the entity with the deeper pockets can often bully the other guy into submission.

>In Craigslist v. 3Taps, while primarily a CFAA case, 3Taps was found to be infringing copyrights

My understanding is that the copyright part of the case was thrown out [1] and thus was settled solely around CFAA matters.

>In Ticketmaster v. RMG Technologies , RMG was found to infringe just by parsing a page.

I agree that the logic used for the judgement is absurd (for reasons that are plainly obvious to any HN user). But it's less clear whether the case would meet fair use criteria outlined above should it have come to that. My guess is that it wouldn't qualify since the usage affects the copyright holders ability to make money on the work and doesn't meet any of the other criteria for Fair Use.

>Facebook v. Power Ventures

This is not a case involving a defense of fair use (as far as I can tell). Facebook even acknowledged the users owned the data and had a right to it. The defendant was actually found to be violating CFAA and CAN-SPAM acts.

>It seems Google is the only entity capable of making unauthorized copies and then getting courts to agree that it's fair use. For the rest of us, it's infringement

Provably false [2]. It sounds like perhaps your personal experience has soured your opinion on the matter? That's understandable. But none of the evidence you've cited supports the argument that Google is infringing copyrights in its core activities nor that Google is the only entity where copyright laws and fair use legislation don't apply.

PS: To be clear, my argument revolves specifically around copyright infringement and fair use. I don't have enough understanding of other, separate legislation like CFAA to comment on that except to say that it seems overly broad and unrealistic. But that's another topic. I'm specifically arguing against calling Google a copyright infringer in a broad sense which is what you've done. That's not been proven.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use#U.S._fair_use_factors [1] https://techcrunch.com/2013/04/30/craigslist-3taps-lawsuit-d... [2] http://fairuse.stanford.edu/overview/fair-use/cases/

Re: Web Scraping in 2016

#377
post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There isn't: the function for this standard includes expected benefit as an input. Every standard has inputs, so that certainly isn't the quality for making something a double standard. The only remaining quality is how unfair it feels, so it would probably be better to just address that, since it is obviously the only thing you disagree about.

With that logic decreased wages for women are not a double standard due to the potential for maternity leave affecting their output at work. This is a double standard plain and simple, and a very dangerous one at that.

I think I'm just being difficult.

My point was that when you call something a double standard, you're arguing two things of equal value have been judged differently under the same standard. But by acknowledging they've been judged differently, you're acknowledging that there is a judgement, a standard, that applies the same to both, and produces the results you object to. What you really object to is the fairness of the qualities checked by the standard.

Since the outcome of calling things that, vs calling them a double standard is the same, I think most people already know and have no trouble with this. My protests were worthless.

It could gain value if there were certain whitelisted judgable aspects (like expected value), and judgements that aren't based on things from the whitelist are considered outside the scope of a standard. Then, calling the standard unfair and calling it a double standard would have a different meaning (if only in some contrived way, since any aspect is just an argument away from the whitelist)

Re: Web Scraping in 2016

#378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes laws are neat and a reason for attending law school I suppose. I'm of the simpleton opinion that TCP/IP and the other protocols are the law of the net, and you ought to start with those.

Excellent news. I'm of the opinion that might makes right is the law of the land, and I'm going to start by buying a bigger gun.

If you were really of that opinion I think you would hide instead.

Re: Web Scraping in 2016

#379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a separate project: - https://github.com/fake-name/ExHentai-Archival - https://github.com/fake-name/PatreonArchiver - https://github.com/fake-name/xA-Scraper - https://github.com/fake-name/DanbooruScraper Or... well, 4 separate projects. Whoops? At one point, a friend and I were looking at trying to basically replicate the google deep-dream neural net thing, only with a training set of porn. It turns out getti…

At least Ex supports torrents and also has some custom p2p software which you can run (serves content) from which data can be siphoned off. And what is served through their website is resized. So web-scraping is an inferior approach.

You seem to be assuming

1. I'm scraping the resized galleries.

2. I don't have the Hath perk that makes the galleries full sized.

3. I don't have a phash-based fuzzy image deduplication system on top of all this (see https://github.com/fake-name/IntraArchiveDeduplicator). It's main purpose is to deduplicate manga (https://github.com/fake-name/MangaCMS).

Re: Web Scraping in 2016

#380
post #284

I do a significant amount of scraping for hobby projects, albeit mostly open websites. As a result, I've gotten pretty good a circumventing rate-limiting and most other controls. I suspect I'm one of those bad people your parents tell you to avoid - by that I mean I completely ignore robots.txt. At this point, my architecture has settled on a distributed RPC system with a rotating swarm of clients. I use RabbitMQ for…

What would the rough costs be to run the 800k UA scenario?

To be clear, I have a pool of 800K theoretical UAs derived from the mechanism I use to generate them, not 800K clients.

Regarding costs, I really have no idea. It depends on how rapidly you cycle the UA, and how fast whatever you're scraping is.

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