Overselling A.D.H.D. • Hacker News Board

Re: Overselling A.D.H.D.

#201

Post by papapra » Tue, Aug 23, 2016, 9:40 PM UTC

jrapdx3 wrote: post #86

Since I've had the responsibility of managing the treatment of at least a thousand adults and adolescents with ADHD, it's a subject I've studied quite a bit. And as the medical literature attests ADHD is probably among the most researched of all medical conditions and its reality is unquestioned based on the scientific literature. When people say "I don't believe in ADHD" I point out it's not like believing in Santa…

Is not the problem misdiagnoses? There are a lot of conditions that mimic ADHD, I think the problem is that a lot of diagnosis are not thorough enough.

Re: Overselling A.D.H.D.

#202

Post by reitanqild » Tue, Aug 23, 2016, 10:08 PM UTC

krinchan wrote: post #109

reitanqild wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can't work with silence, I always have to have music on. If I don't, I start wandering around the internet and getting nothing done. > Pair programming is basically God's Gift to ADHD. Just keep in mind that there is a huge variation, not every AD(H)D-er is the same. > Taking the medication is hell. Then you should possibly contact your doctor, it shouldn't be that way as long as you follow the recommandations, b…

> Just keep in mind that there is a huge variation, not every AD(H)D-er is the same. I covered this later on. The whole "sometimes medication is necessary" bit. > Then you should possibly contact your doctor, it shouldn't be that way as long as you follow the recommandations, but sometimes even minor changes can make major differences, even changes in dosage or even type based on the same active ingredient. It's less…

>> Just keep in mind that there is a huge variation, not every AD(H)D-er is the same.

> I covered this later on. The whole "sometimes medication is necessary" bit.

I was just thinking about the ways to cope, music/sound, pair programming. I know not every ADHD-er prefer pair programming.

>> Then you should possibly contact your doctor, it shouldn't be that way as long as you follow the recommandations, but sometimes even minor changes can make major differences, even changes in dosage or even type based on the same active ingredient.

> It's less the effects of the medication and more the way that medication impacts your life as an adult. You're often accused of not actually having ADHD and faking it for "legal meth". Some people actually struggle with the temptation to use recreationally.

That's a shame if you ask me and you have my sympathy here.

>> This isn't R, is it?

> Relevant? Yes. It is. If you can't make it through a workday without your medication, you can barely handle your social life. ADHD trying to be social is always late, always harried, always forgets to bring the thing it promised to bring, and much more. Trust me, I can't tell you what my plans are for this weekend without checking my calendar and every appointment on that calendar has a checklist of things to bring if any.

I know what you mean.

> The problem is, when you go off meds, it's ten times worse than if you never took medication.

This is where our experiences differ

Re: Overselling A.D.H.D.

#203

Post by koverstreet » Tue, Aug 23, 2016, 10:14 PM UTC

soylentcola wrote: post #65

flogic wrote: post #22

I'm generally not fond of this sort of article and this one is no exception. They present a case that drug companies like selling drugs but we knew that. What they don't do is present a good case that ADHD is actually overdiagnosed. The world in general is not very good at accepting psychological conditions. ADHD is commonly regarded as "youth", "laziness", or "lacking discipline". Watching a loved one fight to focus…

Yep. Dealt with this my entire life. Teachers, doctors, and counselors suggested I see someone regarding a possible ADD diagnosis all through school as my supposed "brilliance" (their words, not mine) came along with a seemingly unbeatable tendency to zone out in class, constantly talk to other kids when I knew I was supposed to be listening, and flat out forget to do major assignments while I just sort of daydreamed…

And these kinds of experiences are why ADD deniers fill a lot of us with rage. Their willful ignorance is hugely destructive and damaging to the people they're able to influence.

Re: Overselling A.D.H.D.

#204

Post by crack-the-code » Tue, Aug 23, 2016, 10:32 PM UTC

AStellersSeaCow wrote: post #153

crack-the-code wrote: post #72

While I do think that ADHD is a real condition, I don't think that the solution is to medicate children with a very serious life changing drug that alters the core aspects of a child's personality and behavior. The true solution is to revamp our country's education system and provide a framework that can accommodate the wide variety of personalities that come into the classroom. Instead of forcing children to think o…

"I don't think that the solution is to medicate children with a very serious life changing drug that alters the core aspects of a child's personality and behavior. ... Instead of forcing children to think one way, we should let them think the way they NATURALLY think, and flourish with their native mindset." This is wildly inaccurate and ignorant, and basically perfectly sums up why the problem isn't being treated ef…

To your first point, I would strongly disagree, and actually argue that you are the one being wildly inaccurate and ignorant. I know many people first-hand who were affected negatively from the drugs. As an example, I once had a very charismatic friend who was extremely bright, happy, and just fun to be around. In middle school, he started taking medication. He became detached, depressed, quiet, and generally dull. He would at times be himself, but overall, other friends and I noticed a drastic [negative] change in his behavior. To me, that is extremely serious, especially as a child where you are forming your character and social abilities and exploring your imagination. Another example, I have a cousin who takes the medication. Throughout her childhood, she experienced unusual and unpleasant side effects like headaches, stomach pain, anxiety, sleep issues, etc. Her doctors have rotated her through different medications, but it seems there was never a golden ticket with 0 side effects. You argue that these are negligible side effects, like coffee. I would say that these are much worse than coffee, at least in the extent of how they effect people, and at the same time would argue that it doesn't even matter if the effects WERE the same as coffee. Do you want your child to be on coffee and redbull? Not me. I know plenty of other people who experienced the same symptoms and personality changes I described here, and although that is not conclusive evidence, there seems to be a large consensus on this issue (as far as the side-effects and changes in personality). And if you think there is no chance of any long-term health consequences derived from prolonged use of these "mild stimulants" like ritalin and adderall, then I am going to reluctantly step back and say we should just agree to disagree.

To the second point, you seem to be confusing my observation as a call to blindly end the use of medication. My argument isn't that we must end the use of medication and ignore the issue, it was that we need an overhaul of the education system so that we can get rid of the pills and preserve the well-being of the children. Not a practical or easy solution, I agree, but it is an important one at the least. And of course there will be children who fall at the far end of the spectrum, where no matter how accommodating the system is, they will still need the assistance of medication to truly thrive. But at least we can safely say we tried at that point, instead of assuming that these children are all "troubled" and need big pharmamama to feed them the milk of corporate greed.

Re: Overselling A.D.H.D.

#205

Post by PhasmaFelis » Tue, Aug 23, 2016, 10:37 PM UTC

buttcoinslol wrote: post #173

PhasmaFelis wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine this: you're an adult professional, sitting at your desk looking at a freelance work assignment that needs to be done by tomorrow, weeping with frustration because you've been staring at it for eight solid hours, trying and trying to begin, and you can't because focusing on anything important is like trying to grip a handful of water. Because you ran out of your meds. This is what my life is like. If that doe…

Imagine this: you're an adult professional, writhing in pain and occasionally vomiting, weeping in frustration while laying in bed not able to get out. Because you ran out of heroin. That is what my life was like. If that doesn't sound like a medical condition to you, then I don't know what you're thinking.

Were you writhing, vomiting and weeping before you ever took a hit of heroin? Did you continue writhing, vomiting, and weeping for months after quitting with no reduction?

No?

Re: Overselling A.D.H.D.

#206

Post by angry-hacker » Tue, Aug 23, 2016, 10:38 PM UTC

PhasmaFelis wrote: post #137

engx wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do people on meth enjoy cleaning? There is little difference between meth and Adderall. Taking any type of stimulant even coffee helps people do menial tasks and be more optimistic while doing them. Maybe millions of people are effected by some problem of distraction and lack of focus. But to suggest there's some biochemical reason for this that's cured by amphetamines seems like pseudoscience to me. Drugs do wor…

Imagine this: you're an adult professional, sitting at your desk looking at a freelance work assignment that needs to be done by tomorrow, weeping with frustration because you've been staring at it for eight solid hours, trying and trying to begin, and you can't because focusing on anything important is like trying to grip a handful of water. Because you ran out of your meds. This is what my life is like. If that doe…

Sounds more like detox.

I'm regular drug addict and know the feeling.

Re: Overselling A.D.H.D.

#207

Post by angry-hacker » Tue, Aug 23, 2016, 10:40 PM UTC

joshuata wrote: post #198

sseal wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

three things: 1. You do not enjoy your work, and thus have no motivation. 2. Maybe you should not do the work and suffer the consequences. 3. You have built a mental dependency that you must take amphetamines to "focus", and this hinders your real ability to focus. All of those things ^^^ I have experienced at one point or another in my life. You can focus, you have to make yourself. There is no other way. You do not…

I have struggled with ADHD for my entire life. I don't think you realize how it can affect you. I started to take medication after nearly failing out of college. It was physically impossible for me to study for more than 40 minutes; I would fall asleep no matter where I was. It was not a matter of motivation or dedication. I was hitting a physical barrier that I could get around any other way. I agree that there is o…

Have you ever thought about your body and mind were not designed to do things that need constant focus?

Re: Overselling A.D.H.D.

#208

Post by PhasmaFelis » Tue, Aug 23, 2016, 10:56 PM UTC

blocktuw wrote: post #159

PhasmaFelis wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine this: you're an adult professional, sitting at your desk looking at a freelance work assignment that needs to be done by tomorrow, weeping with frustration because you've been staring at it for eight solid hours, trying and trying to begin, and you can't because focusing on anything important is like trying to grip a handful of water. Because you ran out of your meds. This is what my life is like. If that doe…

I agree that there are people who will benefit from the use of prescription medications to treat different life issues. I too suffer from hours of staring at work, unable to start or finish. I don't think I have a learning disability or a disease that needs treatment. But I think there are many alternatives to help people who cannot start and finish work tasks. I can usually find a quiet and productive work environme…

Why do you assume that I'm not already using all of the techniques you described, in conjunction with the meds? Why do you assume that you know what's going on inside my head better than I do?

I'm not being rhetorical, I honestly would like to know. It's a huge problem that so many people refuse to believe that mental illness exists, not just for me and not just for ADD. You wouldn't say to someone with chronic fatigue syndrome "Yes, nobody likes to get up for work, but you just have to suck it up and deal with it." You wouldn't tell a diabetic that they shouldn't have to take shots just to get through the day. What makes you feel qualified to do that to me?

> Yes, we should be exploring alternative treatments besides powerful amphetamines which can cause addiction and health issues.

Absolutely we should! I would love to find a non-stimulant treatment that works for me. I regularly do research and ask my doctor to see if there are any new treatments available. Until they come up with one that works, I'm going to keep doing what I need to do to get by.

Also, I'd love to see a source on "addiction and health issues," because Ritalin and the other common ADD meds are not addictive, and have no long-term side effects for the large majority of patients, at clinical doses.

> I don't want to have to do drugs at work to keep my career from those who want to take a pill and work for 12 hours a day.

This is a strawman. That has never happened to you; your career is not under threat from drug abusers. My career will absolutely crash out immediately if I stop taking my meds, I've tried it before. What you're doing is no different than medical marijuana prohibition: you'd sooner let patients suffer than run the risk that someone might get high.

Re: Overselling A.D.H.D.

#209

Post by cmrdporcupine » Wed, Aug 24, 2016, 12:10 AM UTC

Wish this article was not paywalled.

I believe I am "ADD" (not hyperactive) myself, and so is my 8 year old daughter, at least so far.

But I do not want her to get that label, and for the school system to label her that way, because the last thing I want is for them to demand that we medicate her.

When we are talking 5% or 10% of the population, from my perspective "disorder" starts being the wrong word to use. That is a significant enough of a percentage of the population that the classroom/workplace should adjust to _them_ not the other way around.

Somehow I've made that happen for my own life, with a lot of frustration. I just need to figure out how to make it work for my daughter.

Re: Overselling A.D.H.D.

#210

Post by chris_va » Wed, Aug 24, 2016, 12:37 AM UTC

pyre wrote: post #88

chris_va wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but that is capitalism. These companies primarily get created because investors want to see a return, the side effect is that they produce novel drugs. So, no, they probably don't need to raise prices. Because they now have a temporary monopoly they are finding the monopoly price point as you say. Having said that, try coming up with a better system to produce drugs.

That is not capitalism. The existence of the FDA ensures that it is not a free market. Trying to label it as such is disingenuous. The EpiPen product is basically a plastic housing around a syringe to make it easily injectable. There is no high sky-high R&D cost here.

Well that was impassioned :).

An unregulated free market is not the same thing as capitalism.

There is nothing preventing you or anyone from developing a generic epipen, especially since it is just a plastic housing around a syringe. It just takes time and money.

Also, R&D costs are already paid for. If they are using money for R& D it will be for something else. Profitability in the pharma industry is generally low, there are lots of failed drugs that have to be paid for by something. Arguing that companies have a moral responsibility to price products low is unfortunately not true.