Live data from Hacker News

Overselling A.D.H.D.

nytimes.com

11–20 of 235 posts

Re: Overselling A.D.H.D.

#11
“We’ve decided as a society that it’s too expensive to modify the kid’s environment. So we have to modify the kid.”

Unfortunately, we can't modify much of the environment without giving up a lot of what we have. And, that's the trade-off of rapid progress - evolution is no where near as fast. We probably should change the schools for many reasons. But, changing them so that they're somehow more natural is probably an impossible goal, at least until we invent more technology.

Humans have had to deal environmental diseases at every major milestone: choosing residential over nomadic; domesticating livestock; using grain as a primary food source; choosing urban over rural; inventing industry, the corporation, and desk jobs; inventing dangerous chemicals for products and fuel; inventing processed foods; inventing weapons of mass destruction. The diseases that have come with these have been trade-offs that we have accepted.

As a sufferer of several psychological diseases, I suspect that mine are all environmental in some way - stress, close-quarters living, giant social hierarchies, living by the calendar and clock, being exposed to all sorts of toxins, etc. My nature tells me that I should be out running through the forest and chasing game - not sitting at a desk and typing on a keyboard. But, am I going to live alone in the forest? Hell no; I enjoy what I have.

I take several psychological drugs, and they have awful side-effects. And, I self-medicate in other ways. But, those are the trade-offs that I've chosen to be able to do all the things that my mind conjures.

Re: Overselling A.D.H.D.

#12

I've always been skeptical of ADHD diagnoses, thinking that it was widely over-diagnosed and a problem in American culture more than anything, and not as commonplace in reality. My googling took me to this article which suggests I am wrong: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1525089/

I'm far from an expert on this, but I've always thought that the symptoms (inattention and/or impulsivity and hyperactivity) are only maladaptive in modern culture, where young people are expected to spend long hours sitting quietly at attention in school.

Is that a disease, or a flaw in modern culture?

Re: Overselling A.D.H.D.

#13
I started taking these stimulants like vyvanse in college about five years ago. Although I can exhibit symptoms from time to time, I do not think at all that it is medically necessary for me. After trying them once, it made things a lot easier, and besides a few episodes, the good effects have been able to balance out the bad. I do get very worried occasionally though that I will have to suffer long term consequences. I am very much dependent though now this fear has not yet been strong enough to get me to stop.

Re: Overselling A.D.H.D.

#14
I get really skeptical whenever someone uses the term "Big Pharma". 99% of the time the person using it is selling something (hey, look, a $28 book).

How dare a pharmaceutical company sell a product? How dare doctors decide to prescribe medicine? While that was slightly melodramatic, here is a quote from the article:

Schwarz has no doubt that A.D.H.D. is a valid clinical entity that causes real suffering and deserves real treatment, as he makes clear in the first two sentences of the book: “Attention deficit hyperactivity is real. Don’t let anyone tell you otherwise.” But he believes that those who are disabled by the condition deserve a wider range of treatment options than an endless litany of stimulants with chirpy names like Vyvanse and Concerta.

... Great, so it all boils down to the pharma companies not creating enough drugs for ADHD? But it's their fault that there are too many drugs? I am not particularly impressed, and to me it feels like the author is just manufacturing conflict for the sake of selling a book.

Re: Overselling A.D.H.D.

#16

I've always been skeptical of ADHD diagnoses, thinking that it was widely over-diagnosed and a problem in American culture more than anything, and not as commonplace in reality. My googling took me to this article which suggests I am wrong: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1525089/

I'm far from an expert on this, but I've always thought that the symptoms (inattention and/or impulsivity and hyperactivity) are only maladaptive in modern culture, where young people are expected to spend long hours sitting quietly at attention in school. Is that a disease, or a flaw in modern culture?

The article addresses this issues: One clinician quoted in the book more or less admits defeat: “We’ve decided as a society that it’s too expensive to modify the kid’s environment. So we have to modify the kid.”

Re: Overselling A.D.H.D.

#17

I've always been skeptical of ADHD diagnoses, thinking that it was widely over-diagnosed and a problem in American culture more than anything, and not as commonplace in reality. My googling took me to this article which suggests I am wrong: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1525089/

I'm far from an expert on this, but I've always thought that the symptoms (inattention and/or impulsivity and hyperactivity) are only maladaptive in modern culture, where young people are expected to spend long hours sitting quietly at attention in school. Is that a disease, or a flaw in modern culture?

It would be interesting to know if length of school day correlates with diagnosis rate (controlling for confounding covariates), or if, e.g., Montessori schools have fewer diagnoses than public schools (again controlling for confounding covariates like family income, etc.).

Re: Overselling A.D.H.D.

#18

I get really skeptical whenever someone uses the term "Big Pharma". 99% of the time the person using it is selling something (hey, look, a $28 book). How dare a pharmaceutical company sell a product? How dare doctors decide to prescribe medicine? While that was slightly melodramatic, here is a quote from the article: Schwarz has no doubt that A.D.H.D. is a valid clinical entity that causes real suffering and deserves…

> Great, so it all boils down to the pharma companies not creating enough drugs for ADHD?

No, some people will benefit from parenting classes or therapy as well as meds.

The author is saying that meds alone are not enough for some people.

Re: Overselling A.D.H.D.

#19
post #9

The point about changing the kid instead of the environment is an important one. If attention deficit is defined as a kid having trouble coping with the standard 7-hour school day (more like 9-10 including homework) where he is expected to sit still and work on boring and non-essential worksheets, then the condition isn't over diagnosed at all. And if we're not willing to change that environment--and I don't think we…

> And if we're not willing to change that environment--and I don't think we are--then we should medicate the kids so at least the experience is tolerable and they can have some success with it

And as a result traditional response has been amphetamine-salts for children as you say. But I completely disagree that this is something we should do.

For one I think we don't have good enough science to know how potentially dangerous or helpful ADHD drugs really are. Is it going to help them adjust later, or will it be harder? Are they going to be dependent on amphetamines their whole life? Evaluation of drugs which are primarily targeted at emotional and behavioral problems is difficult enough in neutral conditions, since it is hard to control/evaluate/quantify results. Yet the conditions we are dealing with are totally not-neutral.

Basically big pharmaceutical companies fund lots of research - if the research doesn't support their product they can shelve it and fund some other studies until they have research which does. It's an awful field with too much money and lots of dishonest science.

Secondly, using medications to treat ADHD (because that makes money for their producers) is as you pointed out making us avoid the cultural / environmental problems which cause this issue. But I disagree that this is inherently from the 7-hour school day as you point out. Kids went to school for 7-hours 50 years ago as well, but ADHD diagnosis and medication use has been constantly increasing. [0]

A large factor to this is the increasing amount of stimulation that kids today are actively exposed to that they weren't in the past (I can't remember references of the top of my head, I'll try and find one though). Basically if you grow-up with 4-6 hours of TV or video games per day, yeah it's hard to sit down and read a book. Obvious right? And your recommendation is really to give amphetamines to 7-year olds? Rather than limit consumption of mediums that are inappropriately over-stimulating for large durations?

[0] http://images.slideplayer.com/18/5690061/slides/slide_2.jpg

Re: Overselling A.D.H.D.

#20
I'm an adult who takes Adderall. Just asked the doctor for a prescription and got it. I can work without it, but I work better with it. If I'm in a 'flow' it keeps me there.

The drug is safe and effective when used properly. Why limit it?

Post reply on HN