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EpiPen Price Rise Sparks Concern for Allergy Sufferers

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Re: EpiPen Price Rise Sparks Concern for Allergy Sufferers

#91

Post by curiousgeorgio »

Cyph0n wrote: post #28
gmisra wrote: post #18

One of the early on-line responses was "maybe we can figure out how to 3D print these cases". It turns out that an Epi-pen is just a plastic safety housing around a normal syringe. Some discussions: https://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/4y5481/cost_of_epipen... https://www.reddit.com/r/3Dprinting/comments/4y7f26/epipen_f...

That second discussion got heated quite fast. I agree with the downvoters though. 3D printing a medical device is not something to take lightly. Edit: Here's why I agree. You download this design from the internet, and 3D print the parts. You then assemble it. Awesome! Some time later, you get an allergic reaction. You use the pen, but it fails to work correctly. Who's responsible? The designer? You (if you're alive)…

Consider this: every time you get into a car, you are putting yourself into life-or-death scenarios that greatly depend on the class and quality of car you've chosen. The government enforces some minimum safety standards for any registered car on the road, but above that, you pay for safety - quite literally.

Does the government prevent the sale of cheaper, inferior cars just because higher-priced cars are substantially safer?

Why should medical devices be any different? If the barriers to entry (e.g., costs associated with FDA approval) were lower, then we'd absolutely have some inferior EpiPens on the market. But we'd also have a lot more options, and all of them (even the best) would be ridiculously cheap compared to what we're seeing now. Wouldn't that be better overall for people who might not be able to afford one at all in the current system?

Re: EpiPen Price Rise Sparks Concern for Allergy Sufferers

#92

Post by mikeash »

curiousgeorgio wrote: post #85
mikeash wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dying because you can't afford a device you need is also not something to take lightly. It may not be a good idea, but blame should lie with the manufacturer for raising the price to such ridiculous levels.

The manufacturer is obligated to (1) obey the law, and (2) maximize profits for shareholders. If you have a problem with the current situation, blame the government/laws[1], not the company. [1] Blame is justifiably attributed to the government whether you believe the fix is a freer market (to reduce the costs associated with bringing suitable competitors to market) or you believe regulation should prevent this from…

(2) is a myth: http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2015/04/16/what-are-cor...

(1) seems like a total cop-out to me. By that logic, you can blame everything on the government. Some guy murders his family in a fit of rage? Government should have done a better job preventing it.

Also, part of the point of this kind of outrage is to punish these companies for their behavior so that the evil choice is not the most profitable one.

Re: EpiPen Price Rise Sparks Concern for Allergy Sufferers

#93

Post by ceejayoz »

curiousgeorgio wrote: post #91
Cyph0n wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That second discussion got heated quite fast. I agree with the downvoters though. 3D printing a medical device is not something to take lightly. Edit: Here's why I agree. You download this design from the internet, and 3D print the parts. You then assemble it. Awesome! Some time later, you get an allergic reaction. You use the pen, but it fails to work correctly. Who's responsible? The designer? You (if you're alive)…

Consider this: every time you get into a car, you are putting yourself into life-or-death scenarios that greatly depend on the class and quality of car you've chosen. The government enforces some minimum safety standards for any registered car on the road, but above that, you pay for safety - quite literally. Does the government prevent the sale of cheaper, inferior cars just because higher-priced cars are substantia…

> Does the government ban us from purchasing cheaper, inferior cars just because higher-priced cars are substantially safer?

Yes?

Re: EpiPen Price Rise Sparks Concern for Allergy Sufferers

#94

Post by gozur88 »

rdtsc wrote: post #67
sevenless wrote: post #30

How many people will this price hike kill? I'm sure that's estimable. What would be morally justified, to stop it?

Nah because it would upset the free market. I mentioned in another comment when someone from Europe or Canada asked something to the effect of "how come everything has to be free market in US even healthcare and such". And I think the answer is we treat free market as a religion. We don't evaluate what is better, healthier, more rational answer for a problem. Like say, "How do we keep people from dying from anaphylax…

I'm pretty sure you could put together epinephrine and a syringe for a few bucks. And sell it for twenty or so with a healthy profit.

But you can't, can you? Is that because of free market worship, or worship of the regulatory state?

Re: EpiPen Price Rise Sparks Concern for Allergy Sufferers

#95

Post by maxerickson »

Animats wrote: post #13
helloworld wrote: post #2

Why haven't competitors entered the market with cheaper products?

They did. Windgap[1] took venture capital, took state funding from Massachusetts back in 2012, and didn't ship the product. Cool web site, though. Sanofi tried, but their product misfired at least 26 times and was recalled.[2] Teva tried, and their product was rejected by the FDA because of problems; they're going to try again with a new model in 2017.[3] [1] http://www.windgapmedical.com/ [2] https://www.auvi-q.com/…

Adrenaclick is still on the market. It's a different mechanism, but still an auto-injector.

http://www.adrenaclick.com/how_to_use_adrenaclick_epinephrin...

Some people apparently decide to buy vials of epinephrine and manually fill a syringe.

http://www.consumerreports.org/drugs/can-you-get-a-cheaper-e...

Re: EpiPen Price Rise Sparks Concern for Allergy Sufferers

#96

Post by foota »

ceejayoz wrote: post #93
curiousgeorgio wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consider this: every time you get into a car, you are putting yourself into life-or-death scenarios that greatly depend on the class and quality of car you've chosen. The government enforces some minimum safety standards for any registered car on the road, but above that, you pay for safety - quite literally. Does the government prevent the sale of cheaper, inferior cars just because higher-priced cars are substantia…

> Does the government ban us from purchasing cheaper, inferior cars just because higher-priced cars are substantially safer? Yes?

But also no, I can be a used car with lower safety features than mandated for new cars I believe

Re: EpiPen Price Rise Sparks Concern for Allergy Sufferers

#97

Post by Retric »

curiousgeorgio wrote: post #85
mikeash wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dying because you can't afford a device you need is also not something to take lightly. It may not be a good idea, but blame should lie with the manufacturer for raising the price to such ridiculous levels.

The manufacturer is obligated to (1) obey the law, and (2) maximize profits for shareholders. If you have a problem with the current situation, blame the government/laws[1], not the company. [1] Blame is justifiably attributed to the government whether you believe the fix is a freer market (to reduce the costs associated with bringing suitable competitors to market) or you believe regulation should prevent this from…

Company misbehaves, government nationalizes them. It's a perfectly valid approach often used in the US, which places the blame on the company not the government as it should be.

Sure, we mostly stopped doing this for various stupid reasons, but legally it's sill an option.

Re: EpiPen Price Rise Sparks Concern for Allergy Sufferers

#98

Post by derekp7 »

ceejayoz wrote: post #93
curiousgeorgio wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consider this: every time you get into a car, you are putting yourself into life-or-death scenarios that greatly depend on the class and quality of car you've chosen. The government enforces some minimum safety standards for any registered car on the road, but above that, you pay for safety - quite literally. Does the government prevent the sale of cheaper, inferior cars just because higher-priced cars are substantia…

> Does the government ban us from purchasing cheaper, inferior cars just because higher-priced cars are substantially safer? Yes?

Even though there are cars with a 5-star safety rating, you can still get ones with a 4-star or even 3-star ratings. So I would say the answer to the original question "Does the government prevent you from buying less safe cars" is "No".

Re: EpiPen Price Rise Sparks Concern for Allergy Sufferers

#99

Post by gwright »

cortesoft wrote: post #55
hkmurakami wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not condoning this behavior at all, but don't we see this with the lack of equal access to drugs all the time? :(

Yes; this is why using the free market to set prices in health care is always such a troubling thing. People don't like the idea of putting a price on their health.

Please don't blame the free market for these high prices. This is a highly regulated medical device market with patent protections and insurance market complications.

The price hikes would immediately attract lower-cost competitors if this were truly a free market.

Re: EpiPen Price Rise Sparks Concern for Allergy Sufferers

#100

Post by hackuser »

curiousgeorgio wrote: post #91
Cyph0n wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That second discussion got heated quite fast. I agree with the downvoters though. 3D printing a medical device is not something to take lightly. Edit: Here's why I agree. You download this design from the internet, and 3D print the parts. You then assemble it. Awesome! Some time later, you get an allergic reaction. You use the pen, but it fails to work correctly. Who's responsible? The designer? You (if you're alive)…

Consider this: every time you get into a car, you are putting yourself into life-or-death scenarios that greatly depend on the class and quality of car you've chosen. The government enforces some minimum safety standards for any registered car on the road, but above that, you pay for safety - quite literally. Does the government prevent the sale of cheaper, inferior cars just because higher-priced cars are substantia…

> The government enforces some minimum safety standards

I think this understates the safety regulations for automobiles by quite a bit. Maybe there's an example of an industry which makes lightly regulated, dangerous products, but I don't think cars are it.

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