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Fighting Cancer

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Re: Fighting Cancer

#31

Post by melling »

karmajunkie wrote: post #26
melling wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're giving me anecdotal information that spans over 20-30 years? Yeah, I'm optimistic that by 2050, we'll be much better off. In the meantime, 7-10 million worldwide will die every year from cancer. We're racing to get self-driving cars to save a lot fewer people.

Its more than anecdotal information. In the last few years 11 new treatments have been approved for stage III and IV cancers that are immune-mediated, which includes melanoma, one of the fastest growing (in terms of incidence) as well as most aggressive cancers. But the real truth is that cancer isn't a single disease. Treatments move slowly because its a host of different diseases which all exhibit the same symptoms…

'cancer isn't a single disease ". That's covered in the video, and it well-known by everyone? The immunotherapy drugs are in the video too. There were certainly a few successes but it sounds like we have a bit of work. It's one of the cancer moonshot projects:

http://www.cancermoonshot2020.org

Do you have to survival rates for the various cancers. That's the benchmark, right?

Re: Fighting Cancer

#32

Post by melling »

okket wrote: post #24
melling wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pancreatic cancer is "hard to fight" because it is seldom detected early, but at a very late stage. I heard Craig Venter once say that the cure for cancer is early detection. Wish I could find the video.

(a bit tangential, not directly related to the special case of pancreatic cancer, maybe in this case early detection provides better results) Early detection is double-edged sword: It is very hard to tell in early stages if the cancer develops into harmful variants and a small false positive error can have drastic consequences, if applied on scale [1]. The result is that many undergo unnecessary therapy with 100% har…

It sounds like we need better non-invasive early detection. Tests where you can monitor the progress. Simply saying "we've got some early tests that aren't very helpful" doesn't mean we shouldn't be improving the tests.

Also, i'm not sure why we can't have both: better early detection and better treatments.

Re: Fighting Cancer

#33

Post by Practicality »

Just an interesting related tangent here: My father in law is dying of heart disease (will probably die in People see me upset and the first thing they say is he will get better, or, it will be ok. When I explain the situation, it's something like, "oh, well, I just KNOW he will get better. Don't worry"

What?

In case you are wondering: He has already had open heart 2 years ago, 4 of 5 arteries are completely blocked again (and those are already bypasses that are blocked again) and the remaining 1 is at 40% blocked. He found all this out when he went to one of the best heart hospitals in the world and they sent him home: "There is nothing we can do." Again, the open heart to bypass all 5 was only 2 years ago, so the math is pretty straightforward on how long the one artery will last.

He has something in his genetics in his family that makes it so this will happen pretty much no matter what he does.

The advice is endless. He has done his research and I believe he has had some real success in delaying this, he has outlived his younger brother by ~20 years (who died in a similar situation at 34). But it's over now.

I am trying to help his family get everything in order. And while it's sobering, it can be a very positive experience. But I wish our friends would stop telling us he'll be fine.

Re: Fighting Cancer

#34

Post by PieterH »

jMyles wrote: post #29

A beautiful read, for many of the reasons already mentioned here. I'm inclined to rethink this one question, though: > Can a single individual patient second-guess the medical machine? Is that really their duty? I don't know if it's anyone's duty , but I think it's completely plausible for a single patient or small group of patients to arrive at a more patient-focused conclusion than the medical industry.

I was hesitant to write this, as I did. It's not a call for passive acceptance. There are a lot of moments when we patients need to prod and push our doctors and nurses. The machine tends to be slow and can miss important things. The patient has to provide feedback ("the pain is worse") and has to insist on the machine listening.

Yet given that, it seems highly risky to me to even be open to the notion that I can second-guess the machine. That is, to find a better treatment, using my own knowledge and that of the Internet, friends, family, etc.

The risks are well known: endless 'alternative' cures that prey on the most vulnerable, taking their money and time, and leaving them to die. It ranges from amateurish nonsense to sociopathic predation. The common thread is patients who don't trust the medical machine, and think they can do better.

So when people tell me that I can find a cure, if I look harder, my reaction is "oh piss off!," before I delete their email. That is not my duty, not within my power, not for a disease like cancer. I mean, even looking for a "better" clinic is such a major undertaking that it lives in a different universe than mine.

I do trust my doctors. They won't cure me, yet they will look after me, manage my pain, and when it comes to it, they will help me die smoothly and easily.

Re: Fighting Cancer

#35

Post by mkriss »

Practicality wrote: post #33

Just an interesting related tangent here: My father in law is dying of heart disease (will probably die in People see me upset and the first thing they say is he will get better, or, it will be ok. When I explain the situation, it's something like, "oh, well, I just KNOW he will get better. Don't worry" What? In case you are wondering: He has already had open heart 2 years ago, 4 of 5 arteries are completely blocked…

Plant based diet is possible solution. [1] Watch documentary "Forks over knives"

[1]. http://www.dresselstyn.com/resolving_cade.htm

Re: Fighting Cancer

#36

Post by kohanz »

An excellently written piece, with a perspective that can only be communicated by someone who is walking that path (so to speak). The thought that the whole "You WILL get better" or "keeping fighting!" notion highlights for me is how taboo of a subject death and dying is in many cultures (very much including Western culture). I truly believe the reason people say such cruel and selfish things is because they cannot bring themselves to talk about the topic of death. It's something we are taught to ignore until we cannot possibly do so any longer. I feel like we might live better lives if we talked about death and dying openly and throughout our lives.

Re: Fighting Cancer

#37

Post by karmajunkie »

melling wrote: post #31
karmajunkie wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its more than anecdotal information. In the last few years 11 new treatments have been approved for stage III and IV cancers that are immune-mediated, which includes melanoma, one of the fastest growing (in terms of incidence) as well as most aggressive cancers. But the real truth is that cancer isn't a single disease. Treatments move slowly because its a host of different diseases which all exhibit the same symptoms…

'cancer isn't a single disease ". That's covered in the video, and it well-known by everyone? The immunotherapy drugs are in the video too. There were certainly a few successes but it sounds like we have a bit of work. It's one of the cancer moonshot projects: http://www.cancermoonshot2020.org Do you have to survival rates for the various cancers. That's the benchmark, right?

I don't know if I think survival rates are the best metric for judging progress here. The ones I'm most familiar with are melanoma's, but those are also a factor of many things besides treatment options. The only thing I can think of that its a good metric for is 'people not dying'.

I also don't know if 'cancer isn't a single disease' IS well known by everyone. In this crowd perhaps, but certainly not the population at-large.

Re: Fighting Cancer

#38

Post by edwhitesell »

jMyles wrote: post #29

A beautiful read, for many of the reasons already mentioned here. I'm inclined to rethink this one question, though: > Can a single individual patient second-guess the medical machine? Is that really their duty? I don't know if it's anyone's duty , but I think it's completely plausible for a single patient or small group of patients to arrive at a more patient-focused conclusion than the medical industry.

> I don't know if it's anyone's duty, but I think it's completely plausible for a single patient or small group of patients to arrive at a more patient-focused conclusion than the medical industry.

I think the more important take-away is each patient should find the treatment that works for them. There are many people who are fully accepting/trusting (whatever term you choose) of the "machine". It works for them, don't knock it.

There are other people who want, and/or need, to look for alternatives. Some of them work and work very well. But, some people don't have the stomach for that, or they second-guess the idea that they "could have done more".

I had a good friend die from cancer a few months ago. After the first surgery and round of chemo, his Oncologists told him all was well, full remission. About a year later, it returned somewhere else. More surgeries, more chemo, full remission.

The third time, now in his lungs and brain, they said even with surgery and chemo he had about 6 months to live. Instead, he took the route of alternative treatments in the US, Mexico & Canada. All of these treatments were by fully licensed Oncologists who have been practicing for 20+ years.

Every 3 months his "machine" Oncologists said they were surprised to see him for another follow-up visit. This went on for 5 more years.

Re: Fighting Cancer

#39

Post by DougN7 »

ciconia wrote: post #23

I've just saw my father die of cancer a week ago. Fortunately, he did this at home and was cared for by his own family, right to the end. I wouldn't describe this experience as sad or tragic. We knew for a while that the moment was coming. I was lucky enough to be with my dad when he took his last breath, and to have been able to say goodbye. I learned a lot about what to do and what not to do in the face of imminent…

Went through the same thing 14 months ago. I often think about that poem "Do not go gentle into that good night"... and contrast it's theme with my father's and our family's calm acceptance of the inevitable. It was hard and sad, but peaceful with a tremendous amount of love all around near the end.

Re: Fighting Cancer

#40

Post by protomyth »

Practicality wrote: post #33

Just an interesting related tangent here: My father in law is dying of heart disease (will probably die in People see me upset and the first thing they say is he will get better, or, it will be ok. When I explain the situation, it's something like, "oh, well, I just KNOW he will get better. Don't worry" What? In case you are wondering: He has already had open heart 2 years ago, 4 of 5 arteries are completely blocked…

Hope is the humanities desired result, we all hope for the miracle. Once in a great while it happens.

Good luck. The paper work for these things is the hardest, and making sure the executor of the estate is up to the task. I do hope you've been able to get the family to see an actual accountant to do as much as possible while he lives so the tax burden and hassle will be lower. Its a serious pain in the butt to deal with bureaucrats when you really want to deal with family.

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