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Almost 80% of Private Day Traders Lose Money

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Re: Almost 80% of Private Day Traders Lose Money

#21
post #5

If you think that's bad, check out forex trading accounts. I don't have the exact stats on hand but an insane percentage of them get completely wiped out. I'm not talking about losing some of your money, I mean 100% of the money in your account and possibly owing even more.

I'd love to see some references for that if you do find them (I'm not disagreeing with you, just would be interested to read more). That's been my impression of most Forex trading too, and I've seen people running 'Forex education' courses where style/bling and motivational Instagram quotes seem to be their main selling point. Forex is so highly leveraged that even if you have some degree of success, it seems easy to…

http://www.businessinsider.com/foreign-exchange-brokers-are-...

Basically you can lose 100%+ of your money because of the leverage. When the Swiss Franc unpegged, brokers went out of the business because they could not get clients to cover losses.

Re: Almost 80% of Private Day Traders Lose Money

#23
The Financial Times often refers to spread betting companies as 'debt collection agencies with a side interest in trading'. Emptying the accounts of users and then collecting the additional money owed is what these companies do. Then they use some of the profits to advertise for new customers to continue the cycle...

Re: Almost 80% of Private Day Traders Lose Money

#24

It's just slot machines with a more respectable coat of paint.

Basically. Occasionally I'll trade the e-mini futures and have likened it Vegas without having to leave my house. All the lights, sounds, charts, order flow, etc... is just like a fancy slot machine.

Re: Almost 80% of Private Day Traders Lose Money

#25

The way the math works out with that distribution: only 80% of them lose money over one year, but as time continues over multiple years, the percent losing money approaches 100%.

This is not how the math works, and it shows a common statistical fallacy. We cannot assume that the chance that a person loses money one year is uncorrelated with the chance that the same person loses money the next.

Here is a simple model a mathematician might realistically use to model this. Given N traders, let P_1..P_N be iid Beta(α, β), and let the chance that trader n loses money during a year be Bernoulli(P_n). The nice thing about this more complicated model is that the simpler model is a limit case of it.

This "first approximation" lets us use simple mathematical tools to test hypotheses like that by providing an alternative model. If our beta distribution looks more like a constant distribution (with high values for α and β) then we can conclude that the number of traders who lose money approaches 100% as time goes on. If the estimate for α and β is lower, we might reasonably conclude that there is some factor of skill involved.

This is just one possible model you could use to test if there is skill involved in day trading. There are many other models which we could test which would also mean that the proportion does not approach 100%, such as a models which assume correlations between different years.

Re: Almost 80% of Private Day Traders Lose Money

#26
post #2

Restricted to the publically-available data from one particular and rather odd site, but probably not crazy. At first it seems counterintuitive, shouldn't it be roughly 50% gaining and 50% losing? But I guess that people typically put in a modest amount of play money, and then tend to trade until either they run out or get discouraged from losses.

1) There's a spread between buy and sell prices, so after many trades, both sides can lose. 2) As there is high leverage, traders are encouraged/forced to put up stop loss orders. These limit the amount you can lose on a trade, but effectively kick out a trader at maximum loss in even tiny amounts of market turbulence. Plus in times of volatility, the automatic market sell orders may get even worse prices. The market…

One thing I've always wondered, if you take a day trader that was wiped out in some time span, and reversed all the trades (ie sell rather than buy and buy rather than sell), would they still be wiped out?

Re: Almost 80% of Private Day Traders Lose Money

#27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also like the casino in that people tend to advertise their big wins, but not so much their losses.

Yes this is totally true. I am not much of a gambler (outside of my investments, but at least I can lie to myself here that I know what I am doing), but I was stuck on my last visit to a casino how nobody was having fun. I saw hundreds of miserable people losing masses of money and not a single smile or laugh.

Depends on the casino and the game. European casinos are very depressing. The Monte Carlo for example should be fun, but it's extremely stuffy. The 'american' style part is a bit more fun.

But, find a cheap casino in Vegas and you can have some fun. Last time I was there, Casino Royale (across the street from the Belagio) had $2 craps with 50x odds. Craps is social to play and $2 is super cheap to learn with.

Re: Almost 80% of Private Day Traders Lose Money

#29
I re-read Michael Lewis' Liar's Poker once every few years. In new reprints he's added a prologue where he says something along the lines of "I tried to write a book about the horrors of wall street and instead it became a recruiting tool for wall street"

In a similar vein whenever something like this comes up I write something that says don't try and do this and inevitable I get 10+ emails from people saying "Ok I understand but I still want to do it anyway."

So if you really want to try and day trade, here is my 5 points of advice

1) You haven't done anything until you trade with real money. Ever played poker with friends that wasn't for money? You always get some jerk bluffing and going all in on Ace-7 because why not, it doesn't matter.

If you want to trade you need to learn your own emotional limits. Get invested as soon as possible. Learn what kind of stress you can deal with.

2) The average successful individual algo trade looks like John Turturro charter Joey Knish in rounders. You are always grinding out a living $100 to $1000 at a time. If that isn't' appealing then stop before you start.

  http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0128442/fullcredits/
3) You need money to begin. It takes as much effort to trade 2000 as it does 200,000. Above a million or so things change. A minimum amount I'd use would be 50,000. If you can't set that aside to trade then don't start.

I mean if you have a great year trading 5,000 and make 20% you have made $1,000. That's not worth the effort. But at say 100,000 your 20% is starting to be real money!!

Be clear to yourself that you are doing this for the money. Any other reason just gives you an easy out.

4) The most important number to look at is draw down, not sharp ratio. I see lost of people on quantopian show great backtested algos that return 200% over 5 years, but have a 70% draw down at one point.

Most people don't have the psychology to loose money. At 10% down you start to question yourself. At 20% down you get really grumpy in all aspects of your life. Most people don't have the ability to let their positions fall to 30% down. If your backtest has a draw down of more than 30% you don't have a workable algo.....period.

Sharpe ratio is great if you are an HFT firm trying to decide how to divvy up your money across 30 successful algos. You don't have 30 successful aglo's. You will be lucky to have one.

5) Don't use leverage....... you can break the other rules, this one you can't. I've seen people go bankrupt. Don't use leverage.

Re: Almost 80% of Private Day Traders Lose Money

#30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) There's a spread between buy and sell prices, so after many trades, both sides can lose. 2) As there is high leverage, traders are encouraged/forced to put up stop loss orders. These limit the amount you can lose on a trade, but effectively kick out a trader at maximum loss in even tiny amounts of market turbulence. Plus in times of volatility, the automatic market sell orders may get even worse prices. The market…

One thing I've always wondered, if you take a day trader that was wiped out in some time span, and reversed all the trades (ie sell rather than buy and buy rather than sell), would they still be wiped out?

Possibly. Also, due to the nature of trading, they may have been wiped out in this hypothetical "reverse all trades" scenario before they were in reality. For example, they could have had one potent stochastic windfall early in their career that, had it gone the other way, would have wiped them out.
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