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An Expat Has Time to Reflect, Now That the Party’s Over

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Re: An Expat Has Time to Reflect, Now That the Party’s Over

#71

Post by dalke »

tsm wrote: post #61
keerthiko wrote: post #46

Am I the only one bothered by an American writer using the term "expat" to describe himself and other foreigners in a country, when the standard term used for the counterpart people in America is "immigrant" or "migrant worker"? American dialogue has been building a language of discrimination that I find extremely insulting as a non-US national in America, which spawns the whole anti-"immigrant" sentiment dominant in…

As a former expat, my understanding of the distinction is that expats realize they're temporarily in the foreign country, and are not consciously working to "go native". Immigrants believe that they've moved for good, and are more likely than not to, for example, hope that their children are a better cultural fit with the host country than the parents were.

Do you consider temporary agricultural workers from Mexico to be expats?

Re: An Expat Has Time to Reflect, Now That the Party’s Over

#72

Post by ta_donk_gt »

keerthiko wrote: post #46

Am I the only one bothered by an American writer using the term "expat" to describe himself and other foreigners in a country, when the standard term used for the counterpart people in America is "immigrant" or "migrant worker"? American dialogue has been building a language of discrimination that I find extremely insulting as a non-US national in America, which spawns the whole anti-"immigrant" sentiment dominant in…

Most of the usage of "expat" that I have seen has been as a way to differentiate between living in another country while remaining primarily a U.S. citizen (and still paying U.S. taxes, etc.) vs. renouncing your U.S. citizenship and leaving forever. The largest segment of people I see are retirees collecting U.S. social security and living abroad somewhere with nicer weather and a modest cost of living. Plenty of younger people seeking to make a living in another country as well, but again, always with a U.S. citizen mindset, not as someone assimilating into the foreign culture.

Regarding the "anti-immigrant" sentiment, this has nothing to do with things like using the term expat instead of immigrant. As much as everyone wants to demonize and vilify, it is probably best to actually understand where these feelings are coming from. It comes from the wage-lowering and job loss that is associated with immigration, and those feeling build up over time. No matter which side of the aisle you fall on, the data is clear, less immigration leads to lower unemployment and higher wages within a region, and more immigration leads to the opposite. The tradeoff is that growth is more difficult and limited with less immigration.

In theory, we try to find the right balance between growth and standard of living for the existing population. In practice, however, only the people at the top have control of the politicians, and that balance will continue to slide towards lower labor costs.

Things are so polarized in this country, and it has become standard to label anyone we disagree with as some sort of "*ist", in order to marginalize them and prevent further discussion on the topic. No matter the issue, when a group feels strongly that they are on the receiving end of unfair behavior, many times there are actual justifiable underlying issues.

Re: An Expat Has Time to Reflect, Now That the Party’s Over

#73

Post by dalke »

mc32 wrote: post #70
dalke wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your definition is not correct, or at least it's incomplete. There are many retirees who call themselves an "expat", such as those at http://money.cnn.com/gallery/retirement/2014/10/14/expat-ret... . Arthur C. Clarke was a British expat in Sri Lanka. He was not sent there by a company. Here's the owner of a company which hires Mexican agricultural workers for 10 months of the year - http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-n…

There are definitely some social strata connotations to it. Migrant workers, who often have visas pre-arranged for them and are given housing, are typically called migrant workers because they do "rounds". Conversely the Mexican workers at the Mexican consulate would be Mexican ex-pats and so would Cemex workers sent by the company to their US offices. As I mentioned above, ex-pats and immigrants from country A livin…

And like keerthiko, I am disturbed by the easy acceptance of this distinction.

The example I mentioned was not a migrant worker doing "rounds". It was under an H-2A agricultural visa to work for a single company in North Carolina. Is that specific Mexican, Rodolfo Benito Coy Garcia, an ex-pat? It sounds like your answer is "no, because he isn't in the right social circles."

I say, if someone's on a 5-year rotation in London, call them a guest worker. That's what they are. Why do you think we should maintain the class distinction in calling people from the more economically advantaged social circles to be "expats", while those from others are "guest workers" or "migrant workers" or other less socially accepted terms?

I'll again point out that your definition excludes all the other people who call themselves "expats", who live more or less permanently in another country, and are self-employed or retired. But who just happen to be from a rich country, and seemingly don't want to be called an "immigrant".

Re: An Expat Has Time to Reflect, Now That the Party’s Over

#74

Post by bjourne »

tsm wrote: post #61
keerthiko wrote: post #46

Am I the only one bothered by an American writer using the term "expat" to describe himself and other foreigners in a country, when the standard term used for the counterpart people in America is "immigrant" or "migrant worker"? American dialogue has been building a language of discrimination that I find extremely insulting as a non-US national in America, which spawns the whole anti-"immigrant" sentiment dominant in…

As a former expat, my understanding of the distinction is that expats realize they're temporarily in the foreign country, and are not consciously working to "go native". Immigrants believe that they've moved for good, and are more likely than not to, for example, hope that their children are a better cultural fit with the host country than the parents were.

There are many Americans and British in Sweden who have settled and married Swedish people and call themselves expats. Really seems like keerthiko has a good point about the word expat just being a fancier word for immigrant.

Re: An Expat Has Time to Reflect, Now That the Party’s Over

#75

Post by dalke »

ta_donk_gt wrote: post #72
keerthiko wrote: post #46

Am I the only one bothered by an American writer using the term "expat" to describe himself and other foreigners in a country, when the standard term used for the counterpart people in America is "immigrant" or "migrant worker"? American dialogue has been building a language of discrimination that I find extremely insulting as a non-US national in America, which spawns the whole anti-"immigrant" sentiment dominant in…

Most of the usage of "expat" that I have seen has been as a way to differentiate between living in another country while remaining primarily a U.S. citizen (and still paying U.S. taxes, etc.) vs. renouncing your U.S. citizenship and leaving forever. The largest segment of people I see are retirees collecting U.S. social security and living abroad somewhere with nicer weather and a modest cost of living. Plenty of you…

You do realize that most US citizens who permanently live outside of the US do not give up their U.S. citizenship. Only a small number renunciations - a few thousand - occur each year. Renunciation has never been a part of the discussion over the classism in the term "expat".

Expats are immigrants, so if more immigration leads to higher unemployment then more expats leads to higher unemployment.

Re: An Expat Has Time to Reflect, Now That the Party’s Over

#76

Post by mc32 »

dalke wrote: post #73
mc32 wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are definitely some social strata connotations to it. Migrant workers, who often have visas pre-arranged for them and are given housing, are typically called migrant workers because they do "rounds". Conversely the Mexican workers at the Mexican consulate would be Mexican ex-pats and so would Cemex workers sent by the company to their US offices. As I mentioned above, ex-pats and immigrants from country A livin…

And like keerthiko, I am disturbed by the easy acceptance of this distinction. The example I mentioned was not a migrant worker doing "rounds". It was under an H-2A agricultural visa to work for a single company in North Carolina. Is that specific Mexican, Rodolfo Benito Coy Garcia, an ex-pat? It sounds like your answer is "no, because he isn't in the right social circles." I say, if someone's on a 5-year rotation in…

People self-label all the time. Retirees are one of them. I wouldn't normally call them ex-pats, but if that's what they want to call themselves, I don't care. Same for migrant workers. They can call themselves ex-pats too, if they like. That said, poor immigrants will rarely mix with the less poor immigrants from the same country, regardless of nationality --for the most part.

To me, and not everyone has to agree, colloquially an ex-pat is someone sent to work abroad by their company where the company pays incidentals, COLA, and does the visa legwork.

Re: An Expat Has Time to Reflect, Now That the Party’s Over

#77

Post by dalke »

bjourne wrote: post #74
tsm wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a former expat, my understanding of the distinction is that expats realize they're temporarily in the foreign country, and are not consciously working to "go native". Immigrants believe that they've moved for good, and are more likely than not to, for example, hope that their children are a better cultural fit with the host country than the parents were.

There are many Americans and British in Sweden who have settled and married Swedish people and call themselves expats. Really seems like keerthiko has a good point about the word expat just being a fancier word for immigrant.

I am US citizen living permanently in Sweden who calls myself an immigrant.

I did so because I agree with keerthiko. I think "expat" is mostly a code phrase for "I come from a rich country" or "I come from the professional or upper class".

It isn't simply a fancier word but I think also a snobbier word. Some expats will 'react violently' if you call them an immigrant, quoting madaxe_again at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12332279 .

Re: An Expat Has Time to Reflect, Now That the Party’s Over

#78

Post by Numberwang »

mwfunk wrote: post #60
Numberwang wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't really understand your point. Not every speeder in the US are caught. Would you say the police doing temporary crackdowns is not a good thing? We should celebrate the police here for doing a good job trying to uphold law and order. Perhaps if they had more resources they could go after the other cases of lawbreaking mentioned, not as part of the main story, in the article.

That's right, police doing temporary crackdowns on this scale, in this manner, and for this purpose is 100% not a good thing. This is not analogous to a speed trap or even DUI checkpoints. Are you saying that you literally can't think of a single way in which this may have been handled better by the police? If it's not even remotely understood to be illegal by the participants, why the heck would any police force in…

But it was understood to be illegal. And what kind of an excuse is not knowing the law anyway? I don't understand all this hatred for police doing their job. Is this because of the recent shootings in the US that you respond in such an emotional way? My analogy contains a crime, just like the real situation. Your analogy somehow tries to make the police enforcing the law in what seems a very reasonable manner correspond to a human rights violation.

There's plenty to criticise the Chinese for. Pick something better to drive your agenda.

Re: An Expat Has Time to Reflect, Now That the Party’s Over

#79

Post by dalke »

mc32 wrote: post #76
dalke wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And like keerthiko, I am disturbed by the easy acceptance of this distinction. The example I mentioned was not a migrant worker doing "rounds". It was under an H-2A agricultural visa to work for a single company in North Carolina. Is that specific Mexican, Rodolfo Benito Coy Garcia, an ex-pat? It sounds like your answer is "no, because he isn't in the right social circles." I say, if someone's on a 5-year rotation in…

People self-label all the time. Retirees are one of them. I wouldn't normally call them ex-pats, but if that's what they want to call themselves, I don't care. Same for migrant workers. They can call themselves ex-pats too, if they like. That said, poor immigrants will rarely mix with the less poor immigrants from the same country, regardless of nationality --for the most part. To me, and not everyone has to agree, c…

Yes, This is all about self-labeling as I don't think there are any laws which cover what "ex-pat" means. At that level I'm pointing out that your definition is only a partial fit to the existing use.

The underlying question I have is, why do some people want to self-label as "ex-pat"? Why not use "guest worker" or "immigrant"?

Personally, I think the term ex-pat became in vogue post-WWI when rich Americans and (poor) artists and writers were part of the European social scene, like Gertude Stein's "Lost Generation". The modern self-employed authors and artists who live overseas still use that term.

After WWII, when US companies started to have European offices, and when it was cheaper and easier for US citizens to work overseas, they re-used the term "expat", in part for the romantic ties to the stories they read while growing up. Since business makes a lot more money than writing, that new term has come to dominate.

And these American guest workers, like British guest workers in China, India, etc., considered themselves better than other guest workers, so preferred the term "expat" over "guest worker." Then, to make it easy to tell the two apart, insist that the term "expat" is the correct one to use for office workers. And it just happens that guest workers in multinational business offices are mostly drawn from white people in rich countries.

I think US and British retirees living overseas call themselves "expats" for similar reasons; to consider themselves apart and above immigrants from poorer countries.

I believe your observations are consistent with my belief that the distinction is based on class terms. If so, by using that term don't you support classism? Of course, as the beneficiary of classism your answer might well be "yes".

Re: An Expat Has Time to Reflect, Now That the Party’s Over

#80

Post by mc32 »

dalke wrote: post #79
mc32 wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People self-label all the time. Retirees are one of them. I wouldn't normally call them ex-pats, but if that's what they want to call themselves, I don't care. Same for migrant workers. They can call themselves ex-pats too, if they like. That said, poor immigrants will rarely mix with the less poor immigrants from the same country, regardless of nationality --for the most part. To me, and not everyone has to agree, c…

Yes, This is all about self-labeling as I don't think there are any laws which cover what "ex-pat" means. At that level I'm pointing out that your definition is only a partial fit to the existing use. The underlying question I have is, why do some people want to self-label as "ex-pat"? Why not use "guest worker" or "immigrant"? Personally, I think the term ex-pat became in vogue post-WWI when rich Americans and (poor…

I don't support classicism --and occasionally recoil from it. But I also see the same people decrying classism decry "ugly [Americans]" --which is an interesting juxta. That said, I don't feel I need to proscribe usage. People can call themselves what they like and may label as they choose. This attitude may further classism, but to me it's a better alternative than telling people who they are or should think they are.
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