Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm not saying that the taxi drivers are right, but your example ignores the education and certification that modern professions require. These days most professions require degrees. Taxi drivers need to be certified and that requires memorizing tons of routes. Taxi drivers are exactly the crowd that doesn't have a college education, severely hampering their mobility to other professions except ones which are worse.…
The analogy most certainly does not fail at closer inspection. Do you disavow all innovation? Does innovation render people who don't have degrees useless? Certainly not. Quite the contrary, innovation makes them more productive and increases their wage earning ability.
Massachusetts to tax ride-hailing apps, give the money to taxis
371–380 of 539 posts
Re: Massachusetts to tax ride-hailing apps, give the money to taxis
#372Re: Massachusetts to tax ride-hailing apps, give the money to taxis
#373Earlier quoted context omitted.
What is socioeconomic mobility (of a person) in this discussion ? Is it rate of change in salary ? > If people who could have been top-notch scientists, engineers, civil servants and entrepreneurs were prevented from doing so because they couldn't move up the ladder (and inversely, rich rent-seekers couldn't move down), society is deprived of their contributions and is worse off. Why are they being perevented ? If I…
Well, social mobility is the change in social status relative to others, which can correlate with income, yes. It also correlates with things like education and skills, type of occupation, etc. > Why are they being perevented ? Well, education is expensive -- and has an opportunity cost -- so low-income people often cannot afford to improve their skills and earn more income. If I am poor, and I have enough intelligen…
Why do you classify it as social mobility ? Would not economic mobility be a better term considering education and skills are economic goods not social.
> Well, education is expensive -- and has an opportunity cost -- so low-income people often cannot afford to improve their skills and earn more income.
I thought it was not economic inequality but something else. But yes this make sense and its expected/desired of a good economy. This is not preventing.
> If I am poor, and I have enough intelligence to become a good scientist, engineer, or artist, but cannot afford to go to university and gather the requisite skills, then this is a loss to society.
Thats why the concept of loan/investments exist. All you have to is convince them that its net positive for them too.
Also this not loss. This is absence of profit.
Re: Massachusetts to tax ride-hailing apps, give the money to taxis
#374Earlier quoted context omitted.
Works globally, processes payments, eliminates bad drivers.
The last bit is problematic, as one of the criticisms against them is that they don't eliminate the bad drivers. People drive with all sorts of criminal records which they tried to spin as something positive.
In many senses, being able to provide meaningful jobs to people with a criminal record is actually a service to the society. At least in my opinion, the idea of punishment is also rehabilitation, not that once you've been convicted of a crime, you could never be trusted with a job where you are in contact with other people or money or anything.
So if Uber can hire them, and even their customer feedback is positive, that is a good thing.
Re: Massachusetts to tax ride-hailing apps, give the money to taxis
#375Earlier quoted context omitted.
Many of them don't want to go back to school or get technical training... What do we tell the taxi and truck drivers when Uber shows up with self-drivers, etc.? Uhhh, how about "suck it up and do it anyway"? I know plenty of people on hn are all about the "making the world a better place" shtick and would work anyway/for the sake of it but for the vast majority of people work straight up means doing things you otherw…
> Uhhh, how about "suck it up and do it anyway"? You have it backwards. Humans have always had to suck it up because this is the default, natural state. But one would think in XXI century we could do better. That we can show some civilization, some compassion, instead of telling the unfortunate among us that they should suck it up. They're not our slaves to be forced into productive jobs, or resources to be used up a…
Slaves no but being forced in to productive jobs is the whole point of tying income to market demands. A force which effects us all not just taxi drivers.
>The deserve some help
Sure. Financial aid to reskill. Unemployment benefits while they job hunt. Hell, as I said, I'm for a basic income presuming I get to not work alongside the ex-taxi drivers. Help doesn't need to come in the form of specific regulations to allow a minority of people to perform unwanted work in exchange for income.
Re: Massachusetts to tax ride-hailing apps, give the money to taxis
#376This is a pretty surreal move: >The law says the money will help taxi businesses to adopt "new technologies and advanced service, safety and operational capabilities" and to support workforce development... [Larry Meister, manager of the Boston area's Independent Taxi Operator's Association] said the money could go toward improving a smartphone app his association has started using, or to other big needs. I'm not an…
Re: Massachusetts to tax ride-hailing apps, give the money to taxis
#377Earlier quoted context omitted.
I mostly agree with you, and I would have wholeheartedly agreed with you 2 weeks ago, but I just read a book ("Listen, Liberal" by Thomas Frank) that makes some interesting points about how liberals have shifted from representing working people to representing professionals, and to worshiping innovation. While free trade and disruptive technology is good for the professional class, it inherently increases inequality.…
Many of them don't want to go back to school or get technical training... What do we tell the taxi and truck drivers when Uber shows up with self-drivers, etc.? Uhhh, how about "suck it up and do it anyway"? I know plenty of people on hn are all about the "making the world a better place" shtick and would work anyway/for the sake of it but for the vast majority of people work straight up means doing things you otherw…
A lot of these people are older.
Also, it's gotten to the point that the rate of 'disruption' is too fast for a human lifespan.
It's one thing if horses are replaced by tractors in half a human generation. People can adapt to that and even benefit.
It's another if entire industries are replaced every decade.
Once the rate of change becomes too fast, people simply can't 'suck it up' enough to keep up. There are human limits: physiological and psychological ones.
Re: Massachusetts to tax ride-hailing apps, give the money to taxis
#378Earlier quoted context omitted.
Hmm: - an industry wants to operate as cartel, - but it can't police defectors charging market prices, - so it gets the government to enforce the cartel, - and calls this "regulation" even though it gouges, rather than protects the public. And somehow it is unfair if this gets undermined by events? To take your mall-and-hawkers example, what exactly is wrong with that situation? In practice it doesn't happen very oft…
That's not how taxi medallions came into existence. Cities began to regulate taxis. They set prices, made safety regulations, made it so taxis couldn't refuse service. In exchange taxis were licensed to ensure the prices the city set supported a fleet of taxis. It's hilarious that Uber a billion dollar corporation portrays a bunch of Muslim or African immigrants as rich fat cats. Just lol
Re: Massachusetts to tax ride-hailing apps, give the money to taxis
#379This is a pretty surreal move: >The law says the money will help taxi businesses to adopt "new technologies and advanced service, safety and operational capabilities" and to support workforce development... [Larry Meister, manager of the Boston area's Independent Taxi Operator's Association] said the money could go toward improving a smartphone app his association has started using, or to other big needs. I'm not an…
Cab drivers don't become homeless drifters, they become your next lyft pick up. And the quality of service of Lyft and Uber have gone down the more and more cab drivers become drivers. It's starting to not feel like much of differentiation.
Yeah, at significantly lower wages.
Re: Massachusetts to tax ride-hailing apps, give the money to taxis
#380You and a friend are stranded on an island. You both spend all your working hours catching fish by hand in order to eat. You use some leisure time to build a fishing rod, which enables just one of you to catch enough fish to feed you both. It would be foolish to destroy the fishing rod to preserve both your jobs as fishermen. One of you would fish and the other would do something else, like build shelter and cut fire…
> There is certainly temporary pain endured by workers who are displaced by the innovation. But it is folly to subsidize work that is no longer in demand.
That should not mean the transition could not be smoothened, though.
Let me comment on your example. In todays economy things are sold, not shared. So I need to have something to give in return for the fish that the fisherman (the guy with the fishing rod) gives me. I can dive for scallops. But another guy comes with a scallop-collecting machine and the fisherman does not need my scallops anymore, as he can buy from him cheaper. So I start guarding their stocks for them in return for fish and scallops to eat. But then they invent an automated system for defence of their stock, so my labour is unnecessary now. I need to eat, so I start farming, and as I can't live on herbs merely, I trade some of my crop for fish and scallops. But one day they start importing it from another island for cheaper, and stop buying from me. I can't support my farm year-round just on my crops, so I switch to herding a flock of sheep, and trade meat for fish, scallops, and herbs. But someone comes and builds a modern meat production plant, and I can't sell cheaper than him, so I'm out of business. Given I can't live on my herds' meat only, I need to move on. And while the island slowly thrives with newcomers as the services are increasing and life is becoming easier, the amount of my opportunities diminish. Finally I start up a little market where I sell stuff that I import and/or buy from local providers in order to earn the money to buy fish, scallops, herbs, meat and other stuff. But comes a big coop and drives me out of business. I resort to taxi driving in order to survive, but apps and ridesharing replace my business. I go around seeking a job, in factories, coops, fishmongers, etc., and I find a job as a cashier in the local coop. But an automatic cash largely diminishes necessity of a cashier, so, I'm moved to the big depot of the coop. There, automation, growingly replaces the need for human labor, and as I'm rather inexperienced, I'm laid off. Because they don't want me to become a hobo and pose 'em a threat, some institution gives me 'unemployment money', so that I can survive. I don't want to survive, I want to live, but I lost the chance to become a white-collar while I was trying to catch on, I didn't have the time to focus on one thing and become a professional. So I sort of live as a dependent of the social welfare system, barely surviving, without human dignity. Furthermore, I'm excluded from some parts of community by social code, and am informally a second-class citizen, as I live off the taxes of others. A family is merely a dream for me, as I don't have the money to support it. And should I already have a family, my kids and my partner are at least frustrated at me as I'm a dysfunctional member of the family, though it's also possible that I'm excluded.
Here, a more realistic allegory.