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Japanese writing system basics

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Re: Japanese writing system basics

#301
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't work due to the insane amount of homophones. When you are speaking with someone you have context and you can discern the meaning of what it's said. But random words or texts can change it's meaning depending of what character is used. And the tone system doesn't help as it can be seen in Chinese pinyin. For example, how many kanji can be read as 'shuu'/しゅう: http://jisho.org/search/%E3%81%97%E3%82%85%E3%81%…

There's a tongue twister in Chinese with all characters pronounced "shi".[1][2] Hmm, I don't know Japanese grammar, but if those characters are Chinese ones, you can almost write something like that with these characters. 秋收 and 修習 are legitimate words for starter. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lion-Eating_Poet_in_the_Stone_... [2] https://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-sg/%E6%96%BD%E6%B0%8F%E9%A3%9F%E...

All characters are pronounced "shi" in Mandarin, with 4 different tones, leaving 4 distinct pronunciations.

In other "dialects", such as Cantonese or Teochew, the characters are pronounced as 7 or distinct syllables, with 6 different tones, leaving more than 20 distinct pronunciations.

Mandarin has very few available syllables compared to other languages (not only, say, English, but also older Chinese "dialects").

Re: Japanese writing system basics

#302
post #252

>> "Since we already have symbols for all the sounds we can pronounce [in English]" English has 26 letters, but there are 40+ sounds; which is to say that there are NOT symbols for all the sounds.

One of my goals in life is to introduce Khoisan words into common English use. We need more clicks.

Re: Japanese writing system basics

#304
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty sure you need to learn more than 2000 English words at a minimum too. The only difference is that instead of learning the 1-dimensional arrangement of letters, you learn the 2-dimensional arrangement of radicals.

> The only difference is that instead of learning the 1-dimensional arrangement of letters, you learn the 2-dimensional arrangement of radicals. Except that usually, almost nothing about the arrangement of strokes can be inferred from the sound or meaning of the word, and vice versa.

"Ghoti"

Re: Japanese writing system basics

#305
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A few thousand, with most adults knowing ~1000-2000, but you can get pretty far just knowing the 250 most common. The keyboards look about the same. The trick is there is also a phonetic alphabet that you can use to compose the ideographic characters. Basically Japanese input methods work kind of like autocompletion in an IDE. You spell the word you want using phonetic characters and a little popup lets you pick the…

So then typing Japanese on a keyboard still takes several key-presses for each word? How does writing speed compare between English and Japanese on a keyboard? Furthermore, how was the placement of the characters decided? Are they more closely related to QWERTY (so that typewriters don't jam) or to Dvorak (so that the most frequently used letters are on the home row, and so that alteration between left and right hand…

Yeah, it takes several keypresses per word. Speed is pretty comparable to English as the process is very similar to spelling English words.

To explain how it works in detail, it's important to first note that Japanese doesn't really use spaces between words. This probably sounds weird if you're used to English / most Western languages like it'd be hard to read but actually it's not. You basically compose one word at a time and it draws an underline under the word you are currently typing, then when you press space bar it autocompletes to the correct ideographic spellings. Pressing space again let's you cycle through different possible transliterations (including leaving it spelled in phonetic characters); it almost always gets it right except for homophones (which there are a lot of in Japanese) or if you want to deliberately pick some unusual/archaic spelling for stylistic reasons. Then you proceed to composing the next word. Sometimes dedicated Japanese keyboards have a separate button for the "autocomplete" function, but most use space bar AFAIK. Wikipedia has a description with a demo image of the Windows IME (they all work pretty similarly AFAIK) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_input_methods . Cell phone input described on that page is where things get interesting / deviate more if you're interested.

So there's a small amount of extra overhead with selecting the correct transliteration, but it's minute once you get used to it. Japanese is I'd say slightly more information dense than English, so it compensates and the typing speed is about the same. I'm not actually sure how the character layout was chosen for the Japanese keyboards. Looking at it roughly, I'd guess that the placements are approximately matching the English usage frequency of QWERTY corresponding to the frequency of usage in Japanese as that looks about right to my eyes, but that's just a guess.

You can use Dvorak or whatever you want to though. You don't need a specialized Japanese keyboard. Instead of typing the kana (phonetic characters) directly you just type their Romanized form. So instead of typing たべます (phonetic spelling of "I eat") you'd type "tabemasu", but it'd otherwise behave as I described. I know a lot of Japanese that don't even bother using proper Japanese keyboards and just use standard English keyboards, especially programmers. You'll have to fiddle with some settings, but I know for sure that it can at least be done on Linux and Mac and I'm sure Windows can do it too.

Edit: to explain how Japanese writing works a little better, there are actually 3 "alphabets" - two phonetic (hiragana and katakana) plus the ideographic alphabets, called kanji. The phonetic alphabets always correspond to the same sounds, whereas the kanji refers more to a meaning/idea and can can be read to correspond to multiple different sounds depending on context. For example 食, the character for eating/food is pronounced "ta" in "taberu/食べる" ("to eat"/"I eat"), but "shoku" in "shokudou/食堂" ("cafeteria"; the two characters literally mean "eating room").

Kanji usually only serve as the "root" of a lot of words and Japanese writing tends to be a mixture of ideograms and phonetics. For example, 食べる, where べ ("be") and る ("ru") are phonetic characters. If you conjugate the verb to for instance past tense 食べた ("tabeta"/"I ate"), the root character 食 that means "eat" stays the same but the phonetic characters change to indicate tense. It's also completely valid to not use kanji and spell things out entirely phonetically and this is how most people learn starting out this way and gradually replacing them more and more kanji as they learn, but to do so is considered childish / uneducated.

Japanese is a lovely language, I recommend learning some. Relative to English I'd say it's actually grammatically much more organized / logical (and hence easier), but on the other hand reading and writing are significantly harder to learn. The easy availability of manga/anime/novels in both untranslated and translated forms across a wide range of language levels makes it much more accessible than it was even just 10-20 years ago.

Re: Japanese writing system basics

#306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Make sure you're clicking on the article's title (口) and not on the article's domain, which comes right afterwards. Clicking on the domain takes you to a list of past submissions from the same site. For a title like this one it's pretty confusing. I'm guessing you and I aren't the only ones to misclick.

I feel dumb:-). That's it, thanks a lot.

Modern computing has transformed intellectual activity into an exercise in eye-hand coordination.

Re: Japanese writing system basics

#307
post #191

Yeah yeah, this all makes sense until you see 品, which isn't "a three-mouthed monster" but "goods". Languages are weird, man.

You need a lot of goods to feed many mouths.

Two or three of something is a pretty common pattern in kanji. Two basically implies "several", while three implies "a fuckton". Two suns, for instance, is "bright". Three suns is a sparkling crystal.

Re: Japanese writing system basics

#308
if you need some help with writing essay,mb you can try to ask for some advices frome other people etc)As for me I long time could NOT understand how to essay writing , and probably would never have been able to if i do not accidentally found this site essaywriting1click.blogspot.com, who may be interested come in, it really helped me

Re: Japanese writing system basics

#309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Entering the mouth of the building?

Almost certainly. One fascinating aspect of language is that many metaphors that are baked into language appear in many languages. E.g. In English we can form the future tense with modal verbs, "I will..." and "I am going to..." and in Chinese there are similar modal verbs "我要..." and "我去...". In both languages the idea of intention, or motion, are used as a metaphor in forming the future tense. Or 加油, an expression…

put the pedal to the metal

(idiomatic) To exert maximum effort.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/put_the_pedal_to_the_metal#En...

Re: Japanese writing system basics

#310
post #248

why is this post getting so many voteups?

Because it is a brilliant introduction to a difficult foreign language, for most of us.

The essence of the post is "In Japanese there are characters that represent words". Is that a surprise to anyone? (I don't speak Japanese or any similar language)
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