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Japanese writing system basics

candyjapan.com

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Re: Japanese writing system basics

#271
post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That reminds me that sometimes in my family we'll jokingly say jeet? It comew from the comedian Jeff Foxworthy who said it's redneck for "Did you eat? " I'm in Canada and not redneck I wonder if jeet is actually used in the US.

My father's native New-Jerseyan uses "jeet jet" for "did you eat yet". The one bit of that I consistently use is "agnishna", for "air conditioner".

I recently found a list of these for Scottish that were amazing.

E.g.: "space ghettos" (in standard American accent) becomes Scottish "Spice Girls" :D

Re: Japanese writing system basics

#274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you only need to learn around 3000 symbols This is not a good result. Learning 3000 characters could take years, and even then there would still be some you don't know. To read an English newspaper you only need to learn 26 symbols. Yes you need to learn the words, but you also have to do that for Chinese which is separate from learning the symbols for each word. It's a hugely inefficient way to write. Furthermore,…

> To read an English newspaper you only need to learn 26 symbols. Replace English with any other language using the latin alphabet and this doesn't hold up as there is no indication of meaning. For that matter, there's not a strong indication of pronunciation. I may know English and French but that doesn't help me understand Hungarian or Swedish. I do not know Chinese but my understanding is those 3000 characters are…

That's the point though. To learn Hungarian or Swedish, you'll have to learn the spoken language, and then reading and writing comes essentially for free.

In Chinese, you have to learn the spoken language, and then you have spend just as much time (if not more) to learn the written language.

Many Chinese characters do contain elements of meaning and elements of pronunciation, but that doesn't mean that you don't have to learn them.

"Dilapidated" contains elements of its meaning in the root lapis = stone, but you'd be hard pressed to deduce the meaning from it.

Re: Japanese writing system basics

#275
post #44

I liked the beginning and expected the next word after "mouth" to look almost the same, with a subtle change, which would be a logical extension. But it was quite a jump from a simple square (口) to god-knows-what (食). Also, why 食 is translated as "Eclipse" in Google?

It's not a very good choice to use "食” to represent "eat" here. In modern Chinese we say "吃", and you can see that "吃" has a square part, which is exactly "口". And "食" also means "food", but "吃" doesn't. Also, since ancient Chinese people thought eclipse was caused by a "dog in the sky" eating the moon, it's reasonable for them to use "食" to describe it. But modern Chinese almost always say "月食", meaning eclipse of t…

The article is about Japanese (as you can see from the part on inflection).

Re: Japanese writing system basics

#276
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>already terrible Don't quite see how Chinese is so terrible. It's a remarkably efficient mode of writing for a language filled with monosyllabic words and homophones. Japanese's appropriation of hanzi is largely a historical accident due to geographical circumstance, but most learned in the language most would agree it's far more efficient than simply using hiragana or katakana or even romaji; disambiguation by pict…

> Don't quite see how Chinese is so terrible. It's a remarkably efficient mode of writing for a language filled with monosyllabic words and homophones. It is the opposite. A writing system that requires multiple years to learn is not "efficient".

It's more efficient if you have a lot of words with the same pronounciation.

Re: Japanese writing system basics

#277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If chinese characters weren't unusually cumbersome, why then do chinese schoolchildren learn a different alphabet first Also why did Korea and Vietnam abandon them entirely?

Probably because Chinese characters are a poor fit for Korean and Vietnamese grammar/vocabulary. They are a poor fit for Japanese grammar/vocabulary, too, as you can see by the fact that every character has multiple possible sounds depending on which word it is used in. In Chinese, however, the characters very much make sense for the language. Most words are one or two syllables, and correspond characters correspond…

> The fact that China has kept using them, despite a very pragmatic government that wanted to move the language more phonetic, should say something about their utility.

Or just inertia. Norway has had a steady stream of language reforms over the last century aimed at bringing the official written language better into sync with a majority of spoken dialects. This is a result of hundreds of years of Danish rule that ended in 1814, followed by the period of national-romanticism in the period up to the subsequent break from Sweden, that led to a lot of desire to make language etc. more uniquely Norwegian.

As a simple example, we inherited parts of Danish counting.

It used to be in some parts of the country that we'd say "fire og tyve" for 24 - literally "four and twenty". This was changed to "tjuefire" (twentyfour) in the early 1950's. Anyone who has learned Norwegian in school since then has learned the new form in school and been marked down for using the old forms etc.

Despite that, and being born to parents who were in primary school when this had just changed and who learned the new forms, I still regularly use the old form.

I never learned it at school, and I occasionally had teachers complain about it. I don't use it consistently, to make matters worse - it's not a conscious choice to use a more conservative style or anything, it's just habit I picked up mostly from my dad, which is persisting in my spoken language now, when I'm 41, despite having changed in a language reform a couple of decades before I was born.

This is a difference where there's no practical benefit at all to the old form - it's longer, and the new form is more consistent with spoken Norwegian overall -, yet more than half a century later the old form still persists out of habit.

In particular, trying to engineer changes to language tends to take a long time even when there's no resistance to the change.

Re: Japanese writing system basics

#278
The problem is that many characters look similar but have nothing in common. For example, the article mentions the character 食 meaning "food". So when after reading the article you see similar character like 良 you might think it is somehow related to food. Well, it is not, it just means "good". And another similar character 長 meaning "long" or "leader" also has no relation to previous two.

And when you get to more complicated characters like 感 it becomes even more confusing.

Re: Japanese writing system basics

#279
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nah, 喰 is entirely unrelated; it's one of the few characters Japan invented (most are imported and sometimes simplified from Traditional Chinese). On the other hand, you might recognize 吃 as the 喫 from 喫茶店 (café). The Chinese simplification was overall a good thing. A lot of the simplifications are from Japanese, even. Like, compare the Traditional 體 with the Simplified 体 (body) - the latter is from Japanese.

The Japanese simplifications were pretty good, but a lot of the Communist ones are aesthetically ruinous. 车东气门 have none of the symmetry that 車東氣門 have. 气 doesn't even have its center of mass over its base of support, although at least in this case it is six strokes less. The Japanese simplifications seem to have kept the artistic flavor.

Agreed.

Those simplifications appear to have been designed purely for reduction of stroke count (that is, making it faster to write by hand), not for simplification in the sense of making it more simple, logical, and consistent.

(As a matter of fact, that "simplification" introduced further inconsistencies, in that certain radicals were written differently when part of a character, while the traditional writing maintained it. Example: 金 gold is the left part of money, which you can see in the traditional 錢, but not in the simplified 钱. Similarly 言 in traditional 說 vs simplified 说.)

Re: Japanese writing system basics

#280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Almost certainly. One fascinating aspect of language is that many metaphors that are baked into language appear in many languages. E.g. In English we can form the future tense with modal verbs, "I will..." and "I am going to..." and in Chinese there are similar modal verbs "我要..." and "我去...". In both languages the idea of intention, or motion, are used as a metaphor in forming the future tense. Or 加油, an expression…

"Put your foot on it" means the accelerator / gas pedal, that seems very much equivalent.

I mean in English it isn't used as a generic encouragement, while in Mandarin and Danish it is.
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