Lawsuit could be the beginning of the end for DRM • Hacker News Board

Re: Lawsuit could be the beginning of the end for DRM

#151

Post by zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC » Sat, Aug 20, 2016, 1:04 AM UTC

6stringmerc wrote: post #146

zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The workaround is to buy a Kubota or a Lamborghini or another equally suitable brand without the knee capping. Is this not a reasonable market-forces-problem-solving perspective? Why is it a problem at all then? Doesn't this option to buy a different product exist currently? > Also, just to belabor the point, once a person purchases the John Deere under First Sale Doctrine they are completely entitled to replacing…

My first computing experience was with the Mac 512k at age 5. I grew up in an Apple household and then discovered how behind I was with not knowing DOS. We became a Windows household in the age of Dell vs. Gateway PCs. I learned how to work on machines, replace hardware, work through software conflicts, and got a job at 16 working in a small office making broken things into Frakenstein boxes. Taught myself HTML from…

> Honestly I don't care for your thinking that you're going to explain anything to me, because it's obvious that my attempts to explain artistic creator perspectives are follies.

Well, if you don't actually care to understand, why pretend so in the first place?

Also, I don't really see you explaining much so far? Though I suspect there wouldn't even be all that much disagreement on my part with the problems that you see.

> So, in turn, it'd be helpful if you could give a short indication of what your creative experience is to set a parity of baseline [...]

I think I'll skip this simply because I don't see the relevance. Just assume that all answers are no/none. Or explain how it's relevant to the discussion at hand.

Now, you skipped the most important part, didn't you? Where do you draw the line with the smart tractor that I bought? I didn't ask for your level of knowledge to get into a competition, but in order to be able to make myself understood to you. But if you don't say anything that I could respond to, what's the point?

Re: Lawsuit could be the beginning of the end for DRM

#152

Post by Silhouette » Sat, Aug 20, 2016, 1:25 AM UTC

Endy wrote: post #137

digler999 wrote: post #123

On their website is a banner: "Cancel netflix!". I click on it, and I'm told I should cancel netflix because they put DRM on their HTML5 delivery of movies. Now look, Im a self-professed pirate. I say screw most DRM and I dont recognize IP law. However, I totally disagree that I should "cancel netflix". What are they supposed to do ? Deliver all their movies DRM-free and see them immediately get copied to torrent sit…

They are not the "good guy" - they're merely among the lesser of a few evils. If they were the "good guy", they would deliver content 100% DRM-free and actively support the public domain. For me, "Cancel Netflix!" is not merely a call to remove myself from their service, but rather a call to remove a DRM-friendly platform from the face of the Web. Because as it stands, every other DRM jail can point to Netflix and sa…

If they were the "good guy", they would deliver content 100% DRM-free and actively support the public domain.

And pay the hundreds or thousands of people involved in making a major movie or demanding TV show for months or years of their time with what, sunshine and rainbows? It would be lovely if we could all just contribute our skills and talents for the general improvement of humanity, but the thing about professionals is that their profession is what pays the rent.

I've always been pretty down on DRM, more on the basis that it often winds up inadvertently harming legitimate customers than anything else. And yet from personal experience, there are few things more depressing than spending years of your life creating something truly original, offering it without DRM-like protections for a fair price, and then watching as people just openly rip you off anyway. It turns out that if you challenge them, sometimes they freely acknowledge what they were doing, and in a stunning bit of irony, even ask you what you expected if you made your content available without DRMing it.

If you want to "win" from your point of view, you'd better start with telling people who actually create content at considerable expense in time and money how to deal with the problem of freeloaders in some other credible way. Otherwise, the only thing your approach would remove is a large amount of the creative work that gets done in the world. As I said, I don't much like DRM myself and typically don't buy DRM'd content unless I'm reasonably confident of my ability to break it should the need ever arise, but that's a long way from calling anyone who employs it in a genuine attempt to protect themselves from illegal behaviour a "bad guy".

Re: Lawsuit could be the beginning of the end for DRM

#153

Post by Silhouette » Sat, Aug 20, 2016, 1:30 AM UTC

roywiggins wrote: post #133

digler999 wrote: post #123

On their website is a banner: "Cancel netflix!". I click on it, and I'm told I should cancel netflix because they put DRM on their HTML5 delivery of movies. Now look, Im a self-professed pirate. I say screw most DRM and I dont recognize IP law. However, I totally disagree that I should "cancel netflix". What are they supposed to do ? Deliver all their movies DRM-free and see them immediately get copied to torrent sit…

Netflix shows are all on torrent sites anyway. I'm not sure they would actually lose anything if they dropped the DRM.

After a lot of thinking about DRM over the years, I realised this is one of the great myths.

Yes, DRM is often readily broken. And yes, much of the content is available via "alternative sources" for those who know where to look and how to protect themselves from whatever else might try to come along for the ride. Those who really want to rip something and have a bit of know-how will most likely be able to do it sooner or later.

However, DRM can still prove a significant impediment to casual copying, which in itself may protect significant revenues for the content providers. DRM also makes it very clear to those with access to the content that certain things -- say, trying to keep permanent copies of content streamed from sites like Netflix that rely on subscriptions to operate -- are not intended to be possible. Again, in a culture where a lot of people have barely even heard of copyright and just assume anything available online is free, that can be a big win.

Re: Lawsuit could be the beginning of the end for DRM

#154

Post by tluyben2 » Sat, Aug 20, 2016, 1:32 AM UTC

digler999 wrote: post #123

On their website is a banner: "Cancel netflix!". I click on it, and I'm told I should cancel netflix because they put DRM on their HTML5 delivery of movies. Now look, Im a self-professed pirate. I say screw most DRM and I dont recognize IP law. However, I totally disagree that I should "cancel netflix". What are they supposed to do ? Deliver all their movies DRM-free and see them immediately get copied to torrent sit…

I think the DRM-less Netflix can only work if they would sell you the movies; they don't; they rent them. You did not pay $25-30 per item you watched after which you can say you own it; you paid a fraction.

So I agree with you; they make it easy for me to watch legal content, something I have been shouting for for years. I would not care about DRM if I could watch everything like I can on Netflix; unless I buy it (on a DVD or online, no difference), in that case I'm actively against DRM. I generally am because it doesn't really work for the purpose it's used for so then it's more of a hassle, but like said, I wouldn't care if it's seamless. There were times when I could not watch content in Linux because the DRM decoder didn't work in Linux, so even if I paid, I couldn't get the content I paid for. That's another story, but with HTML5 that's all fixed.

The only time I pirate things still if they put geo restrictions; if some episode (and this is not an IF this is reality) of a series i'm following is aired first somewhere else and I really want to keep up to date I have no choice. If Netflix could break that mold...

Maybe someone knows; for Netflix originals they presumably own the rights right? So why do those not air the entire world at the same time? As if my assumption is the case, that makes them more evil again. I do not know much about the rights in this case though so maybe some greater evil forces them to...

Re: Lawsuit could be the beginning of the end for DRM

#155

Post by carc » Sat, Aug 20, 2016, 1:43 AM UTC

ndesaulniers wrote: post #149

digler999 wrote: post #123

On their website is a banner: "Cancel netflix!". I click on it, and I'm told I should cancel netflix because they put DRM on their HTML5 delivery of movies. Now look, Im a self-professed pirate. I say screw most DRM and I dont recognize IP law. However, I totally disagree that I should "cancel netflix". What are they supposed to do ? Deliver all their movies DRM-free and see them immediately get copied to torrent sit…

> Netflix is the good guy, they are pioneers in electronic content delivery. They are fighting to break the monopoly of the movie industry while having to work with them to get content. And they are producing their own content. Then why don't they release their own content without DRM? It's because they favor DRM just as much as "the bad guys."

Because you're not buying shows/movies from them....?

You're essentially renting here. I see DRM as generally bad only when it's on things you purchase.

Re: Lawsuit could be the beginning of the end for DRM

#156

Post by carc » Sat, Aug 20, 2016, 1:47 AM UTC

Silhouette wrote: post #152

Endy wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are not the "good guy" - they're merely among the lesser of a few evils. If they were the "good guy", they would deliver content 100% DRM-free and actively support the public domain. For me, "Cancel Netflix!" is not merely a call to remove myself from their service, but rather a call to remove a DRM-friendly platform from the face of the Web. Because as it stands, every other DRM jail can point to Netflix and sa…

If they were the "good guy", they would deliver content 100% DRM-free and actively support the public domain. And pay the hundreds or thousands of people involved in making a major movie or demanding TV show for months or years of their time with what, sunshine and rainbows? It would be lovely if we could all just contribute our skills and talents for the general improvement of humanity, but the thing about professio…

I feel a little disappointed that so far, based on the comments I'm reading, this seems to be the minority opinion.

Re: Lawsuit could be the beginning of the end for DRM

#157

Post by wyager » Sat, Aug 20, 2016, 1:53 AM UTC

Silhouette wrote: post #152

Endy wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are not the "good guy" - they're merely among the lesser of a few evils. If they were the "good guy", they would deliver content 100% DRM-free and actively support the public domain. For me, "Cancel Netflix!" is not merely a call to remove myself from their service, but rather a call to remove a DRM-friendly platform from the face of the Web. Because as it stands, every other DRM jail can point to Netflix and sa…

If they were the "good guy", they would deliver content 100% DRM-free and actively support the public domain. And pay the hundreds or thousands of people involved in making a major movie or demanding TV show for months or years of their time with what, sunshine and rainbows? It would be lovely if we could all just contribute our skills and talents for the general improvement of humanity, but the thing about professio…

The false premise behind your question is that DRM does anything to prevent copying.

Re: Lawsuit could be the beginning of the end for DRM

#158

Post by carc » Sat, Aug 20, 2016, 2:00 AM UTC

wyager wrote: post #157

Silhouette wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they were the "good guy", they would deliver content 100% DRM-free and actively support the public domain. And pay the hundreds or thousands of people involved in making a major movie or demanding TV show for months or years of their time with what, sunshine and rainbows? It would be lovely if we could all just contribute our skills and talents for the general improvement of humanity, but the thing about professio…

The false premise behind your question is that DRM does anything to prevent copying.

Whether it is effective is irrelvant. The question is: Do they have a right to prevent you from copying? If you purchase something, like a video game, I 100% think that no, sellers do not have that right. In netflix's, I think that they do. Whether it's effective shouldn't factor into the equation.. it's an implementation detail.

Re: Lawsuit could be the beginning of the end for DRM

#159

Post by roywiggins » Sat, Aug 20, 2016, 2:07 AM UTC

Silhouette wrote: post #153

roywiggins wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Netflix shows are all on torrent sites anyway. I'm not sure they would actually lose anything if they dropped the DRM.

After a lot of thinking about DRM over the years, I realised this is one of the great myths. Yes, DRM is often readily broken. And yes, much of the content is available via "alternative sources" for those who know where to look and how to protect themselves from whatever else might try to come along for the ride. Those who really want to rip something and have a bit of know-how will most likely be able to do it soone…

> Those who really want to rip something and have a bit of know-how will most likely be able to do it sooner or later.

The kind of piracy it does prevent is putting movies you've watched onto a USB stick and handing it to a friend who doesn't pay for a subscription.

For distributing pirated content online, people wanting to download pirate content still have to spelunk through torrent trackers or Popcorn Time or whatever to actually get the video, whether it was distributed originally with DRM or not. DRM-free just makes life a little bit easier for the uploaders.

Re: Lawsuit could be the beginning of the end for DRM

#160

Post by Endy » Sat, Aug 20, 2016, 2:11 AM UTC

Silhouette wrote: post #152

Endy wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are not the "good guy" - they're merely among the lesser of a few evils. If they were the "good guy", they would deliver content 100% DRM-free and actively support the public domain. For me, "Cancel Netflix!" is not merely a call to remove myself from their service, but rather a call to remove a DRM-friendly platform from the face of the Web. Because as it stands, every other DRM jail can point to Netflix and sa…

If they were the "good guy", they would deliver content 100% DRM-free and actively support the public domain. And pay the hundreds or thousands of people involved in making a major movie or demanding TV show for months or years of their time with what, sunshine and rainbows? It would be lovely if we could all just contribute our skills and talents for the general improvement of humanity, but the thing about professio…

You assume that I have a problem with less media in the world. I don't. If 90% of the new content that we see and hear disappeared tomorrow, I would be just fine with that. As it ism we have an overwhelming amount of content that distracts us from things that matter like actually helping people. We give tons and tons of money to entertainers while hard-working EMTs and fire fighters are woefully underpaid. We willingly individually give $12+ to waste two hours of our lives instead of giving that money to a good cause and seeing the people around us flourish - or giving it to creators who don't paywall their creations.

I vehemently make the somewhat radical statement that less corporate-backed media would have a positive impact on the world.

The lack of implied paywall is not going to stop the people who have real passion from doing what they love. And anyone who's skilled that it does stop (because they were in it for the money), well, we might mourn the loss. But someone will come along with the passion and skill to replace them. It might slow them, it might change the scope or the distribution, but it won't stop people from doing whatever it is they love.

I don't want professional media creators, copywrong, DRM, and corporate-backed media. I want a world of passionate hobbyists who produce beautiful things without the utterly ridiculous need to be "profitable".