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Why you should never pay more than $10 for an HDMI cable (Infographic)

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Re: Why you should never pay more than $10 for an HDMI cable (Infographic)

#51
post #48

The graphic is totally useless, the same information could have been conveyed in 30 lines of text. An "infographic" should have some kind of graph or chart or something that adds insight, not a picture of 9 playstations and a dopey flow chart.

What is wrong with conveying those 30 lines of text visually like this graphic does?

Perhaps some people will respond better to the same information in this format as opposed to pure lines of text.

Re: Why you should never pay more than $10 for an HDMI cable (Infographic)

#52
post #34

I suspect Monster has it in their catalog for government contract fulfillment where they can just drop it in without any review of cost when A/V components are ordered (seriously). It's not aimed at people who actually look at price tags.

Have you ever gone into a Best Buy or similar and seen the cable selection? The "cheap" cables are $50, and the Monster cables are sold right beside them. Many people compare prices on the TV before coming into the store, but are not armed with good information when the salesperson tells them that their $1200 TV is worthless without $250 in cables.

Re: Why you should never pay more than $10 for an HDMI cable (Infographic)

#53
post #39
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the point of the "either works or it doesn't" is a comparison versus analog. With an analog signal you could get slightly better results by getting better cables (or worse with worse cables). If you have a poor digital cable it flat out doesn't work. If the cable you're using works, buying a more expensive cable isn't going to make it work any better. Either the 1s and 0s made it from the source to the destin…

I think your understanding of cables is off. All signals are analog. Every single one. (Actually, I take that back. With the exception of quantum computers, to date, all signals are analog). A "digital" cable doesn't just work or not work. It is possible to receive spurious bit errors for many reasons. For example, you turn up the volume to your awesome surround sound speakers, which causes more current to flow throu…

There is this weird thing called error detection/correction.

Re: Why you should never pay more than $10 for an HDMI cable (Infographic)

#54
post #29
post #10

My patience for the line, "It is digital. It either works or it doesn't" ended a long time ago. "Digital" signals are analog signals, but the only difference is that they are restricted to being above or below some threshold. But around that threshold there is a gray area where you can't really tell whether your signal will be interpreted as 1 or 0. I am not defending the need for high-end HDMI cables. But saying "It…

I think the point of the "either works or it doesn't" is a comparison versus analog. With an analog signal you could get slightly better results by getting better cables (or worse with worse cables). If you have a poor digital cable it flat out doesn't work. If the cable you're using works, buying a more expensive cable isn't going to make it work any better. Either the 1s and 0s made it from the source to the destin…

That's still not correct.

For HDMI in particular, there's no error correction at all on the video data (though there is on the audio and control data).

So if one bit gets flipped in the video data as it goes through the cable, you're going to see that wrong bit on screen. You'd have to have an insanely high bit error rate for your eyes to notice it, but it's there, and it gradually gets worse as the error rate increases.

What could flip a bit in a cable? Any number of things. EM interference from outside a badly shielded cable. EM crosstalk between conductors inside a badly designed cable. Signal reflections at badly designed connectors. Basically anything that can happen to any other cable, whether the signal that goes over it is considered to be analog or digital.

I assume the reason HDMI applies EC to the audio and control data is that errors in those channels are more noticeable to the user, whereas errors at reasonable rates in the video will mostly sneak by.

The HDMI spec at http://www.hdmi.org/download/HDMI_Spec_1.3_GM1.pdf is a great source of information about this.

Re: Why you should never pay more than $10 for an HDMI cable (Infographic)

#55
post #39
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the point of the "either works or it doesn't" is a comparison versus analog. With an analog signal you could get slightly better results by getting better cables (or worse with worse cables). If you have a poor digital cable it flat out doesn't work. If the cable you're using works, buying a more expensive cable isn't going to make it work any better. Either the 1s and 0s made it from the source to the destin…

I think your understanding of cables is off. All signals are analog. Every single one. (Actually, I take that back. With the exception of quantum computers, to date, all signals are analog). A "digital" cable doesn't just work or not work. It is possible to receive spurious bit errors for many reasons. For example, you turn up the volume to your awesome surround sound speakers, which causes more current to flow throu…

ugh, I hated signals theory at uni... but let me dust off that knowledge...

> All signals are analog.

I see your reasoning in saying this ("on the wire" etc.); your incorrect though. Not all signals are considered analog (which is important to the point being made)

Analog signals are generally susceptible to noise because they are usually non-recoverable; error checking is hard because it is a non-discrete continuous signal.

>It is possible to receive spurious bit errors for many reasons.

Yes, which is why error checking exists in all these systems. In the context of the wire alone, yes, it is not a case of "it just works". But in the case of the communications subsystem (i.e. the transmitter, medium, receiver) it really does either work or not work :)

Ultimately thought the phrase "it's digital; either it works or it doesnt" is making no comment about the actual signal. It's really saying: an expensive cable is not, due to the digital sub-system, likely to make any difference to error rates (or more succinctly: the performance of the error correction is better than the noise affect of the transport medium)

Re: Why you should never pay more than $10 for an HDMI cable (Infographic)

#56
post #10

My patience for the line, "It is digital. It either works or it doesn't" ended a long time ago. "Digital" signals are analog signals, but the only difference is that they are restricted to being above or below some threshold. But around that threshold there is a gray area where you can't really tell whether your signal will be interpreted as 1 or 0. I am not defending the need for high-end HDMI cables. But saying "It…

The real time to worry about the quality of those cables is when you go over 6 feet.

Re: Why you should never pay more than $10 for an HDMI cable (Infographic)

#57

Even better: An electromagnetically shielded, gold plated optical audio cable. Sold at Sears [1]. I stopped buying cables retail a long time ago. My favorite supplier: RiteAV. They're (IMHO) the Amazon of cables. Huge selection, modest prices [2], and great customer service [3]. 1. http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_05750807000P?vName=... 2. HDMI cables start at $3.50 - http://www.riteav.com/hdmi-cables-c-141_1…

For UK peeps my recommendation would be

http://euronetworks.co.uk/acatalog/HDMI_Cables.html

Really high quality cables, low prices.

Confusingly named, it's UK based as I said.

Re: Why you should never pay more than $10 for an HDMI cable (Infographic)

#58
post #29
post #10

My patience for the line, "It is digital. It either works or it doesn't" ended a long time ago. "Digital" signals are analog signals, but the only difference is that they are restricted to being above or below some threshold. But around that threshold there is a gray area where you can't really tell whether your signal will be interpreted as 1 or 0. I am not defending the need for high-end HDMI cables. But saying "It…

I think the point of the "either works or it doesn't" is a comparison versus analog. With an analog signal you could get slightly better results by getting better cables (or worse with worse cables). If you have a poor digital cable it flat out doesn't work. If the cable you're using works, buying a more expensive cable isn't going to make it work any better. Either the 1s and 0s made it from the source to the destin…

Clearly you've never had an Ethernet Cable that got caught in a door. Or was terminated poorly. Or doesn't have the insulator sheath under the crimp. Or run parallel to a set of Florescent light ballasts. All of these events can reduce performance on Ethernet without causing it to fail outright.

There is a reason why every single TIA/EIA 568 cable plant is carefully tested for things like Near End Cross Talk (NEXT), Latency, Skew, etc..

There is also a reason why there is an entire _discipline_ dedicated to ensuring that the "Digital" signal not only has a channel, but a meticulously crafted one. (See: http://www.linktionary.com/t/tia_cabling.html for details)

To reiterates the OP - there is no "Digital Signal" - signals are analog in nature, and they need an analog channel to transmit them. That analog channel needs to be engineered carefully to get the lowest EBR (Error Bit Rate) possible.

What's interesting is the Failure case of the Digital CODEC on the other end - some may reduce transmit rate in the presence of an increased EBR resulting from dropped packets. Or some may seize up and cease to function. In the degraded case, having a pristine analog channel from the transmitter to the receiver will certainly result in a better digital signal.

There is also the issue of future proofing - We're installing an entire plant of Category 6a cable right now in one of our data centers for a gigabit environment - Category 6a is like the "Monster" version of Category 5e/6 - It seems like a douchey way to do a network install, except when you consider the following - (1) this cable plant will be in use for 10-15 years, (2) We're testing a bunch of Nexus 5010s that will likely make good use of that 6a for 10 Gigabit. So, in addition to passing _today's_ signal flawlessly, it will also pass tomorrow's. This might be an important factor if your HDMI cable is being run through hard to access cabinets/walls.

Now, with all that said, it is still probably the case that the $150 Monster Cables (under normal circumstances) don't have a lower EBR than a $10 cable, but, in the face of RF interference, It may actually be a better performer. I don't know, but I wouldn't discard the possibility without a bit of research and education.

Re: Why you should never pay more than $10 for an HDMI cable (Infographic)

#59

Even better: An electromagnetically shielded, gold plated optical audio cable. Sold at Sears [1]. I stopped buying cables retail a long time ago. My favorite supplier: RiteAV. They're (IMHO) the Amazon of cables. Huge selection, modest prices [2], and great customer service [3]. 1. http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_05750807000P?vName=... 2. HDMI cables start at $3.50 - http://www.riteav.com/hdmi-cables-c-141_1…

No the best ever is Denon's $500 ethernet cable. if you want the best quality for your downloaded MP3s you really need this.

In tests audiophiles showed that not only are the 1s sharper but the 0s are much more rounded giving a more fulfilled sound

Re: Why you should never pay more than $10 for an HDMI cable (Infographic)

#60
post #10

My patience for the line, "It is digital. It either works or it doesn't" ended a long time ago. "Digital" signals are analog signals, but the only difference is that they are restricted to being above or below some threshold. But around that threshold there is a gray area where you can't really tell whether your signal will be interpreted as 1 or 0. I am not defending the need for high-end HDMI cables. But saying "It…

I guess the argument should have been that once you cross a certain threshold, cable quality doesn’t matter. That was of course also true for analog signals (human senses are only so good), but the transition from good signal to bad signal might have different characteristics with digital signals.

While a image from a analog signal will only get noisier and noisier as signal quality decreases, images from a digital signal will first show artifacts and then just stop displaying altogether. That’s a rather sudden transition. One second the signal is there, the other it's gone. Something like that just doesn’t happen with analog signals. (I’m basing this on my experience with terrestrial digital broadcasting – could be totally wrong for HDMI connection but I doubt it.)

I would guess that how sudden that transition is has something to do with the error correction and the codec of the signal. How many wrong bits can the error correction reconstruct? And, as soon as the wrong bits get past the error correction, how many wrong bits can the decoder handle and still reconstruct a image (albeit one with artifacts)? It would certainly be interesting to know how that problem was solved for HDMI connections. If you know the maximum bit error rates for your cables figuring out which are the right ones should be easy, given enough testing :)

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