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New batteries could make phones, drones, and electric cars last twice as long

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Re: New batteries could make phones, drones, and electric cars last twice as long

#71

Post by venomsnake »

finid wrote: post #64
matthewmorgan wrote: post #6

Is it the case that the research was publicly-funded, but the profits are now being privatized?

This has always been the case. Researchers are free to take the results of their publicly-funded research and run. The govt. sees it as a win-win. It's money well spent because of the jobs created. Taxes from those jobs and profits from the corporations is the ROI.

Or the government could own the patent and licence it to american business and prevent rent seeking from the inventors.

It is the same income, but the outcome for the society is better I think. There will still be jobs created and corporate profits.

Re: New batteries could make phones, drones, and electric cars last twice as long

#72

Post by branchly2 »

Fuxy wrote: post #23
wizzard0 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note that having a compressed energy ready for rapid release is exactly equal to handling an explosive in your laptop :) There are a lot of experimental batteries that have like 5x capacity of the current Li-ion ones, but melt and explode when heated or crushed, which makes them effectively useless. This is one of the hardest problems in high-capacity batteries - to avoid "rapid unscheduled heat dissipation" and the…

Ok so that rules out phones, laptops and other devices that tend to get roughed up over time but I would still consider using it as energy storage for the solar panel on my house for instance. As you have it isolated from the house in a specially built enclosure or garden shed it's less likely to get damaged and even if it is the damage can be manageable. Then again in these cases it's more of a matter of how cheap i…

Where weight and energy density is not a concern, you'd just use regular old-fashioned lead-acid. Lots of charge cycles, easily recycled, simple, no overheating, existing infrastructure.

Re: New batteries could make phones, drones, and electric cars last twice as long

#73

Post by deelowe »

branchly2 wrote: post #70

The answer here isn't batteries with more capacity. The answer is: * more areas to lock your bike/scooter/moped (electric or otherwise) * coin-/card-operated charging stations (as in, "plug in while you shop") * charging stations where you work (to charge your EV during the day) I don't think swappable battery stations would be useful, since batteries are damaged by deep-discharging them, and swap-stations would end…

What's your market? If it's the US, there's certainly a need for longer travel distances between charging cycles. Most EV's don't have enough charge to allow for commuting to and from work yet. Especially when you factor in grabbing groceries, taking errands, or other things. I'm not sure what the right amount of range should be, but it feels like it needs to be around 150 miles or so to allow for a comfortable buffer.

Here's the census data from 2009 where they did a study on commuting in the US: https://www.census.gov/prod/2011pubs/acs-15.pdf It's pretty thorough.

Re: New batteries could make phones, drones, and electric cars last twice as long

#74

Post by RhodesianHunter »

Animats wrote: post #30
Retr0spectrum wrote: post #3

It seems like we're always hearing about the next big thing in battery technology, but they seem to stay in research forever, and never hit the consumer market. The most exciting part of this, is that they say the'll be in consumer devices early 2017. I'd love to have one in my quadcopter!

Yes, if we had all the "2x improvements" in batteries from press releases, batteries would be powering airliners by now. "Yet just as safe and long-lasting as the lithium ion batteries used in consumer electronics" is not happy-making as energy density increases. The existing lithium-ion technology just barely keeps from overheating and blowing itself up, and it takes about six safety devices to prevent that. (Latest…

> The existing lithium-ion technology just barely keeps from overheating and blowing itself up

This is somewhat due to the underlying technology, but more largely due to the prevalence of cheap counterfeits/knock offs scattered throughout the supply chain.

Re: New batteries could make phones, drones, and electric cars last twice as long

#75

Post by alex_hirner »

marcosdumay wrote: post #58
smanuel wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lithium-sulfur batteries look like the most possible candidate as the next incremental evolution of the lithium ion batteries. Lithium metal... not so much. But I really hope for revolution in this space, rather than incremental changes. This will boost and give wings to so many other inventions.

Lithium-sulfur only works hot. It may be a great option for huge batteries connected to the power grid, but plugging a 200°C inflammable battery to your laptop might not increase its safety.

You must be talking about the flow version of lithium-sulfur. The ones with (presumably) graphite and cobalt oxide electrodes are going into e-scooters in China now [0]. However, they are yet far from the theoretical 2x in volumetric density of lithium-ion.

For a very good survey on the state of the art in lithium-sulfur look up this recent study [1].

[0] https://twitter.com/openbatt/status/766641735229464576

[1] http://doi.org/10.1039/C5CS00410A

Re: New batteries could make phones, drones, and electric cars last twice as long

#76

Post by bluGill »

branchly2 wrote: post #70

The answer here isn't batteries with more capacity. The answer is: * more areas to lock your bike/scooter/moped (electric or otherwise) * coin-/card-operated charging stations (as in, "plug in while you shop") * charging stations where you work (to charge your EV during the day) I don't think swappable battery stations would be useful, since batteries are damaged by deep-discharging them, and swap-stations would end…

> I don't think swappable battery stations would be useful, since batteries are damaged by deep-discharging them, and swap-stations would end up with too many damaged batteries that way.

That depends - just design a tamper evident battery that contains enough electronics so that when you swap it you pay for not just the power to recharge it, but also the damage you did by using it. So long as the fees are upfront and the devices using it will give me plenty of notice before expensive damage happens I'll be find paying for it.

If your swapable battery is just a bunch of batteries you have the risks you state. However it isn't that expensive to ensure that doesn't happen.

Re: New batteries could make phones, drones, and electric cars last twice as long

#77

Post by alex_hirner »

Animats wrote: post #30
Retr0spectrum wrote: post #3

It seems like we're always hearing about the next big thing in battery technology, but they seem to stay in research forever, and never hit the consumer market. The most exciting part of this, is that they say the'll be in consumer devices early 2017. I'd love to have one in my quadcopter!

Yes, if we had all the "2x improvements" in batteries from press releases, batteries would be powering airliners by now. "Yet just as safe and long-lasting as the lithium ion batteries used in consumer electronics" is not happy-making as energy density increases. The existing lithium-ion technology just barely keeps from overheating and blowing itself up, and it takes about six safety devices to prevent that. (Latest…

All sorts of problems with lithium-metal as we know it. A more benign version pitched by ZAF Energy is zinc-air. They inherit a few problems from pure metal electrodes (like dendrite growth) but not its thermal volatility. On the flipside, the performance increase will practically be not more than 2x that of lithium-ion.

ZAF had a very in-depth visit at Microsoft Research in June 2015. It is interesting to see the tribulations of a startup in commercializing technology that might become feasible but isn't quite yet and maybe never will. The 1h+ pre-sale meeting was taped [0] and I have an article in the writing about it [1].

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWwvHPaimlU

[1] https://docs.google.com/document/d/1R5gkh_A2vb6mDI5-e-EBlvP8...

Re: New batteries could make phones, drones, and electric cars last twice as long

#79

Post by branchly2 »

deelowe wrote: post #73
branchly2 wrote: post #70

The answer here isn't batteries with more capacity. The answer is: * more areas to lock your bike/scooter/moped (electric or otherwise) * coin-/card-operated charging stations (as in, "plug in while you shop") * charging stations where you work (to charge your EV during the day) I don't think swappable battery stations would be useful, since batteries are damaged by deep-discharging them, and swap-stations would end…

What's your market? If it's the US, there's certainly a need for longer travel distances between charging cycles. Most EV's don't have enough charge to allow for commuting to and from work yet. Especially when you factor in grabbing groceries, taking errands, or other things. I'm not sure what the right amount of range should be, but it feels like it needs to be around 150 miles or so to allow for a comfortable buffe…

Yes, the US.

My point is, you can either increase range by having better batteries, or you can do so by charging up while at your destination (ex., in your parking lot at work).

It gets even better if you're running errands and you've got a charging station at the grocery store, library, city hall, etc.

Re: New batteries could make phones, drones, and electric cars last twice as long

#80

Post by omtose »

venomsnake wrote: post #68
omtose wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe in software, but I doubt that the efficiency of motors in drones or cars would change. It's not like there are abstractions to chase in hardware, are there?

It will decrease. Making 99% efficient engine is order of magnitude more expensive than 90%. Double the battery density and suddenly the case for lighter and expensive parts disappears.

That wouldn't be decreasing, just increasing at a slower rate.
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