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Why you should never pay more than $10 for an HDMI cable (Infographic)

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41–50 of 106 posts

Re: Why you should never pay more than $10 for an HDMI cable (Infographic)

#41
post #8

How can companies still get away with not shipping these cables in the box with displays?

Second order effects, of course. If Samsung ships a cheap HDMI cable in the box, it's very little skin off their nose; they raise the price by their cost, about $2, and even in the competitive TV market that's probably absorbable to some extent.

But what happens next? They ship their TV to Best Buy, who quickly notices the TV ships with an HDMI cable, "robbing" them of the chance to sell a Monster cable. Or worse, the customer might still buy one, get them both home, notice there's no difference (or at least no $400 difference) and return the Monster cable. Ack! That's a $100+ profit opportunity that Samsung is costing them. How will Best Buy make up for it? They're going to jack the price of the Samsung TV up by some fraction of the $138 that they can no longer make. Not necessarily the whole amount, it would be prorated based on the average rate of Monster purchase; Best Buy has its own problems if it jacks the price of a TV up as it is a competitive market for them, too!

In fact, it is so competitive that it is not hard to imagine that Best Buy will discover they can't effectively sell that TV for ~$50 more (guessing) and just plain take it off the market. I am not saying this is inevitable, just that it is definitely a very possible outcome. If they don't, the very-price-sensitive American consumers will certainly notice the price difference in sufficient numbers to reduce sales of that TV.

So, how does this feed back to Samsung? They put in an HDMI cable, and either their retails sales drop, or Best Buy even entirely drops their TV.

So, whose fault is this? Money grubbing Samsung? Money grubbing Best Buy? Well, the capitalistic model tends to assume that the customer is informed, and when the customer is not informed, they can be scammed. Here, the customers are not informed. So I split the blame between Monster, who are aggressively lying to customers, and the customer base itself. (Best Buy to some extent here too, for the same reasons as Monster.) Not one, not the other, both. Too many audio/videophiles will aggressively defend their purchase of expensive cables, even after it is explained that their justification is technical gibberish, and as the market leaders they deserve some of the blame.

The other reason I blame this is that if you resolve the problem that a critical mass of customers actually believes expensive cables work, the problems go away. Best Buy raises the prices of all TVs a bit to make up the profit margin, as do all similar retailers. (Most are working on single-digit % profit margins from the top corporate POV, so if they lose something like the Monster cable they will need to make it up elsewhere.) Customers don't even notice because TVs continue to work like computers with constant price drops, so it manifests as a brief interruption in otherwise-falling prices rather than a huge, visible increase. Samsung starts sticking cheap-but-effective cables in, and instead of being punished by the retailers, customers reward them with happy thoughts about good service and a good out-of-box experience (which are hard to quantify but certainly produce bankable assets in the end).

The other option: When buying a TV through a different channel where there isn't a good Monster upsell opportunity, perhaps something like Amazon (which still has the upsell opportunity in some sense, but will present customers with many 1-star reviews and give them a chance to become informed properly), ship an HDMI cable then.

Second order effects, second order effects, second order effects. Always think second order effects when thinking about economics. It's never the simple story, the economic entities react to each other.

Re: Why you should never pay more than $10 for an HDMI cable (Infographic)

#42
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think "It is digital. It either works or it doesn't" in the context of A/V refers to the quality of the converted analog signal - what comes out of the speakers or is visible on the screen. And the signal getting through can either work or not, no matter how well engineered the cable is, isn't that correct?

I think that "it either work or doesn't" only if the receiver has some kind of cyclic redundancy check before processing the signal. My guess is that very few digital A/V systems implement this. Proof of this is the weird sound you may hear on a damaged compact disc, it half works.

Compact discs use something far better (in that context), a combination of two interleaved Reed–Solomon codes called CIRC, which is error-correcting (and not just detecting like a CRC). All digital A/V systems have to implement this in order to read a CD. It's made to be strong against burst errors which is why it can handle scratches on a CD pretty well. Samples can also be interpolated if something's really unreadable.

Even with an error-detecting code, there comes a point where there's too many errors to know if you received a valid code word or if the errors just "canceled each other". If 000 and 111 are your only valid words, it's still possible that a 111 gets turned into a 000 (3 consecutive errors) and there's no way to know about it...

Re: Why you should never pay more than $10 for an HDMI cable (Infographic)

#43
post #39
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the point of the "either works or it doesn't" is a comparison versus analog. With an analog signal you could get slightly better results by getting better cables (or worse with worse cables). If you have a poor digital cable it flat out doesn't work. If the cable you're using works, buying a more expensive cable isn't going to make it work any better. Either the 1s and 0s made it from the source to the destin…

I think your understanding of cables is off. All signals are analog. Every single one. (Actually, I take that back. With the exception of quantum computers, to date, all signals are analog). A "digital" cable doesn't just work or not work. It is possible to receive spurious bit errors for many reasons. For example, you turn up the volume to your awesome surround sound speakers, which causes more current to flow throu…

[deleted]

Re: Why you should never pay more than $10 for an HDMI cable (Infographic)

#44
post #36
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are the colors 0026FF and 8026FF the same? No, they are not. And the difference between blue (0026FF) and purple (8026FF) is a 1 bit error. You will see an image, but not the image your DVD told your TV to display. edit: This comment makes a lot less sense with the deleted comment removed.

It takes a lot of noise to alter the digital signal like this. If we're talking long distance, like a telephone line, the signal gets weak enough that it can happen regularly, but on the cable from the DVD to the TV the voltage drop is ridiculously low. Noise doesn't affect your signal by 4 volts unless you have a serious problem with your system.

Actually, I think that it takes the exact same amount of noise to flip a bit as it does to transmit a bit.

Through the principle of superposition, if you transmit a 0 with X watts, and I transmit a 1 with X watts, our combined signal will be somewhere in the middle, which can cause a bit flip.

I am not talking about voltage drop from end to end, which is a separate issue. I am talking about interference occurring adjacent to any point on the cable that you pick.

Re: Why you should never pay more than $10 for an HDMI cable (Infographic)

#45
post #39
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the point of the "either works or it doesn't" is a comparison versus analog. With an analog signal you could get slightly better results by getting better cables (or worse with worse cables). If you have a poor digital cable it flat out doesn't work. If the cable you're using works, buying a more expensive cable isn't going to make it work any better. Either the 1s and 0s made it from the source to the destin…

I think your understanding of cables is off. All signals are analog. Every single one. (Actually, I take that back. With the exception of quantum computers, to date, all signals are analog). A "digital" cable doesn't just work or not work. It is possible to receive spurious bit errors for many reasons. For example, you turn up the volume to your awesome surround sound speakers, which causes more current to flow throu…

>> "It is possible to receive spurious bit errors for many reasons."

Surely that's why there's error correction layered on top?

Instead of arguing about what might happen, why not find an HDMI device that'll show you how many unrecoverable bit errors it has detected in the stream... Can't be that hard to do.

If my hard disk can send data over a tiny crappy unshielded cheap USB cable without a single bit error, I'd be willing to bet money that an HDMI cable isn't that much different.

Re: Why you should never pay more than $10 for an HDMI cable (Infographic)

#46
post #10

My patience for the line, "It is digital. It either works or it doesn't" ended a long time ago. "Digital" signals are analog signals, but the only difference is that they are restricted to being above or below some threshold. But around that threshold there is a gray area where you can't really tell whether your signal will be interpreted as 1 or 0. I am not defending the need for high-end HDMI cables. But saying "It…

[deleted]

Re: Why you should never pay more than $10 for an HDMI cable (Infographic)

#47
post #39
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the point of the "either works or it doesn't" is a comparison versus analog. With an analog signal you could get slightly better results by getting better cables (or worse with worse cables). If you have a poor digital cable it flat out doesn't work. If the cable you're using works, buying a more expensive cable isn't going to make it work any better. Either the 1s and 0s made it from the source to the destin…

I think your understanding of cables is off. All signals are analog. Every single one. (Actually, I take that back. With the exception of quantum computers, to date, all signals are analog). A "digital" cable doesn't just work or not work. It is possible to receive spurious bit errors for many reasons. For example, you turn up the volume to your awesome surround sound speakers, which causes more current to flow throu…

Isn't HDMI supposed to do error correction on both sides, though? I could be totally making that up, I thought I remember hearing that a while back.

Re: Why you should never pay more than $10 for an HDMI cable (Infographic)

#49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mean the fact they store your password in their database as plaintext? Yeah kinda scary to be honest.

That's unfortunate. I guess it goes to show how much value those "Hacker Safe" badges are. But how do you know they store your password as plaintext? I was talking about the way they handled it in general. They didn't email any customers, and they still don't know which cards/orders were affected. I think they should at least be able to tell me which customers have been complaining (ex. those who made orders between…

I forgot my password and when I used their system instead of having them generate a temporary password for me they sent me the password in an email.

Re: Why you should never pay more than $10 for an HDMI cable (Infographic)

#50
post #10

My patience for the line, "It is digital. It either works or it doesn't" ended a long time ago. "Digital" signals are analog signals, but the only difference is that they are restricted to being above or below some threshold. But around that threshold there is a gray area where you can't really tell whether your signal will be interpreted as 1 or 0. I am not defending the need for high-end HDMI cables. But saying "It…

Ok when it comes to HDMI the goal was to always have good quality. The difference between an analog and digital is that digital ENCODES the information, it either gets there or not. The only thing the cable gives you is bandwidth. Analog is different. The signal is itself the image, so a poor signal = poor image. MAYBE if you have a projector projecting onto a movie theater screen will a better HDMI cable matter... m…

My network cable that handles all my data doesn't have gold plating or shielding because the cable as designed is sufficient to operate at Ethernet speeds, temperatures, humidity, etc.

If you want to operate a faster network, or one in a harsh environment, you will be using shielded cables with gold plates and more twists per inch.

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