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PHP the Wrong Way

phpthewrongway.com

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101–110 of 194 posts

Re: PHP the Wrong Way

#101

Post by tclancy »

robert_tweed wrote: post #67
yedpodtrzitko wrote: post #4

I just skimmed the website, and I am still not sure if it's meant seriously or if it's some kind of joke? Feels a bit contradictory eg. "dont use framework" vs "make software secure by default". Isn't a security one of the gains of using frameworks, beside other things? You would need to be a security expert to cover all potential security issues when writing something from a scratch.

You can also build horribly insecure applications with a framework. A framework does not absolve you from thinking, which seems to be the point the author is making. There's a difference between frameworks and libraries and of course it is a good idea to use trusted crypto implementations and avoid NIH syndrome, but a large part of security is including it in the design process from the start. You can't just assume "…

The jack of all trades is the master of none. Almost no generalist is going to be good enough to properly handle all security concerns. I like knowing my framework is constantly upgrading password handling, XSS attack prevention and things I haven't even heard of yet. The fact you can build insecure things in a framework isn't an argument against it and why would someone who builds a horribly insecure app in a framework produce a better result without using one?

Re: PHP the Wrong Way

#102

Post by willishq »

hazbo wrote: post #95
gedrap wrote: post #92

>>> The wrong way: Always use a framework on top of PHP I haven't been actively working with PHP for quite some time but... From what I've seen, I wish many people didn't take this advice (including the teenager me). It's similar to ORM. Often, if you don't use one, you end up building one, a very poor one. Yes yes I know there are exceptions and all but, in general, that's truth. Same with frameworks. If you don't u…

You make a fair point. I've seen this happen before and after a while, projects that have essentially turned into a poor framework, plus the application, can become somewhat of a pain to maintain. PHP has come a long way in the past few years and the amount of open source packages has become huge, especially since the adoption of composer. I think with that in mind, it is now easier to build and maintain PHP applicat…

I know what you mean, I once worked on a project which similar to what you describe, the problem in these instances is when the people involved in the creation of the project are no longer involved in the maintenance of the project so the project veers away from the implemented standards and becomes a smorgasbord of badly-integrated composer packages.

Re: PHP the Wrong Way

#103

Post by [deleted] »

pcunite wrote: post #73
iamd3vil wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want to write spaghetti code, you can write it whichever approach you take. It's more about making it difficult to shoot yourself in the foot.

Frameworks allow you to shoot yourself in the foot with a Tank.

[deleted]

Re: PHP the Wrong Way

#104

Post by reitanqild »

pcunite wrote: post #73
iamd3vil wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want to write spaghetti code, you can write it whichever approach you take. It's more about making it difficult to shoot yourself in the foot.

Frameworks allow you to shoot yourself in the foot with a Tank.

Perfect example. You nailed it!

(Anyone close to familiar with tanks will know it will take quite some effort compared to any of the smaller alternatives ;-)

Re: PHP the Wrong Way

#105

Post by V-2 »

robert_tweed wrote: post #67
yedpodtrzitko wrote: post #4

I just skimmed the website, and I am still not sure if it's meant seriously or if it's some kind of joke? Feels a bit contradictory eg. "dont use framework" vs "make software secure by default". Isn't a security one of the gains of using frameworks, beside other things? You would need to be a security expert to cover all potential security issues when writing something from a scratch.

You can also build horribly insecure applications with a framework. A framework does not absolve you from thinking, which seems to be the point the author is making. There's a difference between frameworks and libraries and of course it is a good idea to use trusted crypto implementations and avoid NIH syndrome, but a large part of security is including it in the design process from the start. You can't just assume "…

> You can also build horribly insecure applications with a framework

"You can also find sober drivers that cause accidents". Of course, but it doesn't invalidate the fact that drinking and driving is a bad combo and puts you and others in greater danger statistically. It's sort of similar here.

Re: PHP the Wrong Way

#106

Post by Practicality »

PHP is the very different from development in C# or Java. Anyone from those backgrounds pretty much automatically hates it. PHP will punish you hard for designs that would be fantastic in .NET or Java.

It's also very different than Perl or Python. It tries to be specific to the web and that makes a lot of oddities that the more general languages do not have.

OTOH you can make a fantastic design in PHP. It's just that there are very few people who know how to do that. Frankly, because it's not taught... anywhere.

So, yeah, as much as I've learned how to use PHP (through 11 painful years), it's really hard to figure out how to use correctly. It's possible.

The ideal PHP design (currently) is a hybrid between OOP and straight script that will look bizarre to anyone from, well, any other background. As others have mentioned you have to be very careful not to load too much into memory or you will come crashing down fast.

I still use it, because now I know how, but, ironically, I wouldn't recommend it. It's so very different from anything else that I don't know that the skills transfer well to other languages (other than straight-up problem solving).

Re: PHP the Wrong Way

#107

Post by V-2 »

Why learn frameworks when you can build everything from scratch and become a true carpenter ("building software using general purpose frameworks doesn’t make you a coder or a programmer any more than putting together a pre-built house makes you a carpenter").

"These people [framework creators] seems to be infatuated by the though of having other people follow their “way of doing things”, becoming some kind of PHP community leaders, and having other people use their latest “hip” Open Source tools..."

How lame of these people.

The problem is, if I inherit an application created with a well-known framework, I'll have a much easier time figuring out what is what, and looking for answers when something goes awry.

On the other hand, if the codebase has been written from scratch by Greg, a real carpenter of a programmer, who is no longer with the company, then good luck. I'm at his mercy entirely.

I'll be having his "way of doing things" for dinner whether I want it or not, the only difference is that I won't have a community of other people in the same situation.

This aspect isn't addressed by the author at all, although he found just enough time to provide us with a psychological analysis of framework authors and their narcissist motivations :)

Re: PHP the Wrong Way

#108

Post by stephenr »

kijin wrote: post #96
stephenr wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't forget to understand how/why/what those other packages do. Including a package based on the contents of its packagist description alone is basically like reading the ingredients for a pizza and then eating a bag of flour.

It's the same with frameworks. "Modern PHP" frameworks usually include a ton of composer packages.

So pick a better one.

Re: PHP the Wrong Way

#109

Post by siegecraft »

The entire argument could be reduced to: "be informed, and make good decisions" which is a very banal statement that could be applied to almost every endeavor in life. Because PHP makes it so easy to be productive without being informed you run the risk of unknowingly making bad decisions. There is an exhortation to use frameworks so that if you aren't informed you at least get the guide rails / hand-holding / best practices that the framework imposes on you.

Re: PHP the Wrong Way

#110

Post by emodendroket »

pvdebbe wrote: post #17
yedpodtrzitko wrote: post #4

I just skimmed the website, and I am still not sure if it's meant seriously or if it's some kind of joke? Feels a bit contradictory eg. "dont use framework" vs "make software secure by default". Isn't a security one of the gains of using frameworks, beside other things? You would need to be a security expert to cover all potential security issues when writing something from a scratch.

Being married to a framework is arguably worse than using separate, isolated and composable libraries to handle the equivalent things. You can fight architectural problems of a library easily, but not when there's one inside a framework and between its internal components.

I disagree. The odds of a grab-bag of small libraries by different designers who may or may not be actively maintaining them working well together is much smaller than the likelihood of a framework's components working together. And besides that, familiarity with the framework means you are able to understand its limitations and how to work around them.
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