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Organisms might be quantum machines

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Re: Organisms might be quantum machines

#111
post #107
post #5

Tl;dr Biology is applied chemistry, chemistry is applied quantum physics and in some cases chemistry is a leaky abstraction and does not perfectly explain what is going on in organisms. Three examples - photosynthesis being more efficient than expected, birds sensing Earth's magnetic field by an unknown mechanism and a lack of understanding how olfaction works in detail - are presented but besides that there are no n…

Can you provide an example of how this rather facile assertion leads to any insight into biology? For example, how does it follow in a coherent fashion that the chemical properties of DNA lead to Mozart, or a lady bug? In short, how does chemistry explain either the origin, function or future trajectories of any of the utterly amazing biological entities that exist today?

I mean... evolution explains the complexity of things, and evolution certainly has a foundation in the chemistry of DNA. Or are you asking why we have the particular configuration of biological entities we have instead of a different one?

Re: Organisms might be quantum machines

#113

- -1st century: the brain is 'magic' - 15th century: the brain is the creation of a divine being - 17th century: the brain is a clockwork - 20th century: the brain is an electrical computer - 21th century: the brain is a quantum device - 22th century: the brain is a ?? It's an interesting thought though, and I especially like Neil Stephenson's idea that the brain is a quantum device that 'leaks out' into parallel uni…

I like this best: The brain is the Universe trying to understand itself.

Every agent tries to understand (or perhaps "dualize") its environment.

I both like and dislike theories of mind that describe the brain in terms of n-veiled solipsism. But I generally like them because of the specific (decision-theoretic) statements they make about how an agent is defining its environment.

What's striking to me about life on earth -- mostly humanity, but also the larger notions of noo-/biosphere -- is that, so far, it doesn't match up to our larger-scale evidence about how define .

We have managed to define our environment in a fashion which is scale-agnostic, at least with respect to the measurement of physical accumulations of stuff. We readily form metaphors between:

(a) things in our locale,

(b) things in the huge,

(c) things in the tiny, and

(d) things in the meta (read: math/pattern).

I think the worst thing we can do -- as engineers or scientists or mathematicians or even metaphysicians -- is to presume that any of |a-d| generate the others "in reality". (I just did a bit of that when I implicitly defined "larger-scale evidence" as "most legitimate evidence".)

In the categorical sense of arrow-reversal-without-structural-change[0], models of |a-d| are dual to any notion of 'environment' we can imagine. That doesn't suggest determinism, but it does offload every variation on the question of free will into a(n empty) simulationist argument whose limit is some computational infinity, like an omni-* deity or an extremely general structure like an ∞-topos[1].

An interesting partial exception is complexity theory. When we map out statements like PostBQP==PP[2], we're doing something fundamental, that bridges the gaps in |a-d| without adding something too weird as |e|. The actual notion of 'complexity-wise truth' that's being generated[3] is a measure of inferential distance that doesn't seem to care about pesky details but is somehow still attuned to specific problems.

There are caveats -- you could imagine each distinct problem/distance class as the dual of a scope (our syntactic presentation of such scope anyway[4]). The segregation of our environment into such scopes is only the first half of the problem. Less trivial is the act of mapping out our environment as a structured space of such scopes, so that we dissolve all questions of type ['what is', 'what should be', 'what was', etc.] into a singular question of type ['what direction to go now'].

To me, this sounds quite dangerous. And yet some variation on that is what many of us in the greater "self-directed tech" milieu are working on. There's an embedded urgency to the framework. Call it "the market" or "the simulation" or "the basilisk" or "bringing about the singularity" or "humans vs. ai" or "geopolitics" or whatever you want, but what's difficult to ignore is how effectively |bcd| equivalences eat up |a|, for any definition of |a| that invites historical norms.

Interpret this how you will.[5] For me it causes a sharp recoil from generalizations like "we are just the universe observing itself." The recoil is followed by a question, "okay what should I observe so that I might identify with it?" To which the answer is usually, "whatever makes me a better engineer, so that I can worry about this later, when I have a better understanding of what I'm asking." (i.e., I fail to prevent |bcd|>|a|, and each iteration on the theme speeds up the process a little bit.)

[0] https://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/duality

[1] I should say I feel pretty awful making this analogy, as it performs a |bc| equivalence at the expense of most of |a| and everything important in |d|. It's no better than "what if atoms are tiny universes?"-type questions, and it should be treated as illegitimate as evidence for anything more detailed than the notion of existence itself.

[2] http://blog.computationalcomplexity.org/2004/01/complexity-c...

[3] https://complexityzoo.uwaterloo.ca/Complexity_Zoo

[4] https://golem.ph.utexas.edu/category/2010/07/what_is_a_theor... (though this analogy is almost worse than [1]'s)

[5] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12317525

Re: Organisms might be quantum machines

#114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what if the nature of the physical universe has no other reason to be as it is other than mathematical consequences of harmonies, resonances, balances, etc? In other words: if all that exists follows mathematical law, doesnt that make math part of the existential?

> if all that exists follows mathematical law As a thought experiment, try the opposite direction: Math mirrors reality, not reality mirrors math. I don't see electrons solving quantum equations - equations describe an electron. The cannonball follows a trajectory that we can describe using math - but it doesn't do math. Sure, you can say that it does, implicitly, but IMHO that's stretching it a bit, I don't see the…

> As a thought experiment, try the opposite direction: Math mirrors reality, not reality mirrors math.

If this was true, it would severely limit the usefulness of math. We'd see our predictability break down much sooner than we do actually. Read up on it here:

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/mathphil-indis/

Re: Organisms might be quantum machines

#115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if all that exists follows mathematical law As a thought experiment, try the opposite direction: Math mirrors reality, not reality mirrors math. I don't see electrons solving quantum equations - equations describe an electron. The cannonball follows a trajectory that we can describe using math - but it doesn't do math. Sure, you can say that it does, implicitly, but IMHO that's stretching it a bit, I don't see the…

> As a thought experiment, try the opposite direction: Math mirrors reality, not reality mirrors math. If this was true, it would severely limit the usefulness of math. We'd see our predictability break down much sooner than we do actually. Read up on it here: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/mathphil-indis/

Why do you interpret my post as an absolute?

http://dilbert.com/strip/2015-06-07

I said - and I have no idea why I have to paraphrase my one sentence - to try a thought experiment, to see what happens when you reverse the direction.

Not to mention that you didn't really say anything? I have no idea what your point even is.

Re: Organisms might be quantum machines

#116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what if the nature of the physical universe has no other reason to be as it is other than mathematical consequences of harmonies, resonances, balances, etc? In other words: if all that exists follows mathematical law, doesnt that make math part of the existential?

We don't have to make this thought experiment since we already know that it isn't the case - reality is a subset of what's mathematically possible. Finding that subset is what physics is concerned with.

Were you replying to me? I actually upvoted you, if it's meant to be a contradiction than I don't see it. I only just realized you may have been answering me since you used my words, but other than that I have no idea if that's true.

In any case, I should have read more carefully, because

    > reality is a subset of what's mathematically possible
does not mean anything. It's a grammatically correct sentence, sure, and that's all. The number of (grammatically) correct sentences is definitely larger than the number of useful ones though :)

Re: Organisms might be quantum machines

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quantum does not rescue free will. "Random" is "free" in the sense that a wheel has "three degrees of freedom" when it's not attached to the axle.

You're right that it doesn't necessarily rescue free will. That's why I said, selective pop-sci wave-collapse (as in some imaginary mechanism for free will that leverages a quantum avenue). Determinism (in most accounts) precludes free will. Therefore randomness is necessary but not sufficient for free will. Quantum mechanics is the only avenue we have for randomness/non-determinism, so if free will does exist, it's…

Yeah but there seems to be some kind of belief that quantum is somehow "less lawful" in a way that would rescue it from the conflict with determinism. Which simply doesn't work - either it's random, in which case it's not Will, or it's determined by something else, such as consciousness, in which case it's not any more Free than classical physics.

(Personally, Compatibilism offers the only satisfactory way out.)

Re: Organisms might be quantum machines

#118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We don't have to make this thought experiment since we already know that it isn't the case - reality is a subset of what's mathematically possible. Finding that subset is what physics is concerned with.

Were you replying to me? I actually upvoted you, if it's meant to be a contradiction than I don't see it. I only just realized you may have been answering me since you used my words, but other than that I have no idea if that's true. In any case, I should have read more carefully, because > reality is a subset of what's mathematically possible does not mean anything. It's a grammatically correct sentence, sure, and t…

let's just say it was a bit late in my timezone ;-).

I probably replied to the wrong post, but I wanted to say that math is in fact a tool for science - instead of being the most fundamental science itself. I've met some people, including mathematicians, who think that because everything can be described with math, it means that math is all that's needed to find the truth about reality. My point is that the process of appying math to find the model that best fits our own world is something that's outside of math itself.

Re: Organisms might be quantum machines

#119
post #32
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note that most of what we call placebo effect is actually return to the mean. True placebo effect exists but its much more limited than what people usually think.

Naively I would expect regression toward the mean to weaken the placebo effect - using a placebo seems a better idea in light cases and even in a controlled study you would probably not be allowed to only use placebos in severe cases so that it seems more likely that the situation worsens which would reduce the observed strength of the placebo effect in the other direction.

But placebo only work in the situations considered as light cases, where regression to the mean is still feasible. Once you consider cancer, severe infections or other stuff like that, there is no placebo effect anymore. That's why I said most of the placebo effect is regression to the mean, and once you study diseases where regression to the mean never occur, then the placebo effect is in-existent.

Re: Organisms might be quantum machines

#120
post #5

Tl;dr Biology is applied chemistry, chemistry is applied quantum physics and in some cases chemistry is a leaky abstraction and does not perfectly explain what is going on in organisms. Three examples - photosynthesis being more efficient than expected, birds sensing Earth's magnetic field by an unknown mechanism and a lack of understanding how olfaction works in detail - are presented but besides that there are no n…

Or: If it can be optimized/exploited by evolution, of course it will be.
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