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New batteries could make phones, drones, and electric cars last twice as long

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Re: New batteries could make phones, drones, and electric cars last twice as long

#51

Post by dozzie »

bitJericho wrote: post #4
Retr0spectrum wrote: post #3

It seems like we're always hearing about the next big thing in battery technology, but they seem to stay in research forever, and never hit the consumer market. The most exciting part of this, is that they say the'll be in consumer devices early 2017. I'd love to have one in my quadcopter!

Progress in batteries has come a long way in the last 20 years. It's one of the reasons your quadcopter is even possible.

Sure, of course. It's not like the amateurs used combustion engines in their flying models for decades.

Re: New batteries could make phones, drones, and electric cars last twice as long

#52

Post by mtgx »

codecamper wrote: post #44
mtgx wrote: post #33

I remember SolidEnergy. We discussed it here on HN before. It was one of the, if not the most promising companies to have made "battery breakthroughs", a few years ago. And they also seem to be launching right on time (I believe they promised a 2016-2017 release date a few years ago). What's strange though is that Tesla always brags about how it has a list with "hundreds" of such battery breakthroughs, and that they…

You realize that Tesla is not making the batteries in the gigafactory. That'd be Panasonic. It may have something to do with patents? Or maybe Tesla realizes making the cars is enough, leave the batteries up to others? Or, they have the market momentum now, so lets go for it, the world will bend to our will.

SolidEnergy is going to make its own batteries, so I meant why isn't Tesla buying their batteries instead of Panasonic's batteries? But my best guess is it has something to do with price per Kwh being much higher or simply not being confident in SE's ability to scale up to 50GWh per year in the next 2-3 years, which is what Tesla is going to need for the Model 3.

Re: New batteries could make phones, drones, and electric cars last twice as long

#53

Post by Pxtl »

Fuxy wrote: post #23
wizzard0 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note that having a compressed energy ready for rapid release is exactly equal to handling an explosive in your laptop :) There are a lot of experimental batteries that have like 5x capacity of the current Li-ion ones, but melt and explode when heated or crushed, which makes them effectively useless. This is one of the hardest problems in high-capacity batteries - to avoid "rapid unscheduled heat dissipation" and the…

Ok so that rules out phones, laptops and other devices that tend to get roughed up over time but I would still consider using it as energy storage for the solar panel on my house for instance. As you have it isolated from the house in a specially built enclosure or garden shed it's less likely to get damaged and even if it is the damage can be manageable. Then again in these cases it's more of a matter of how cheap i…

Well, outside my house at a safe distance. But yes, better batteries as a utility company thing don't need to be as safe since they can be outdoors behind a fence like a propane tank.

Re: New batteries could make phones, drones, and electric cars last twice as long

#54

Post by JoeAltmaier »

xbmcuser wrote: post #39
mtgx wrote: post #33

I remember SolidEnergy. We discussed it here on HN before. It was one of the, if not the most promising companies to have made "battery breakthroughs", a few years ago. And they also seem to be launching right on time (I believe they promised a 2016-2017 release date a few years ago). What's strange though is that Tesla always brags about how it has a list with "hundreds" of such battery breakthroughs, and that they…

This tech will take at least a few years to reach the point where they can start supplying enough batteries that Tesla would need for its cars.

...or Musk saying "Lets make those in our Gigafactory instead".

Re: New batteries could make phones, drones, and electric cars last twice as long

#55

Post by EpicEng »

cheriot wrote: post #10
matthewmorgan wrote: post #6

Is it the case that the research was publicly-funded, but the profits are now being privatized?

American government funded research that turns into a business creating jobs in America sounds like a reasonable outcome to me. After China stole solar, we need some other industry with growth potential. Edit: Do the down voters care to comment? Anti-nationalism, anti-capitalism, or what?

I don't know why you're being down voted. It is in the public interest for businesses like these to prosper.

Re: New batteries could make phones, drones, and electric cars last twice as long

#56

Post by [deleted] »

cheriot wrote: post #10
matthewmorgan wrote: post #6

Is it the case that the research was publicly-funded, but the profits are now being privatized?

American government funded research that turns into a business creating jobs in America sounds like a reasonable outcome to me. After China stole solar, we need some other industry with growth potential. Edit: Do the down voters care to comment? Anti-nationalism, anti-capitalism, or what?

[deleted]

Re: New batteries could make phones, drones, and electric cars last twice as long

#57

Post by learc83 »

Fuxy wrote: post #23
wizzard0 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note that having a compressed energy ready for rapid release is exactly equal to handling an explosive in your laptop :) There are a lot of experimental batteries that have like 5x capacity of the current Li-ion ones, but melt and explode when heated or crushed, which makes them effectively useless. This is one of the hardest problems in high-capacity batteries - to avoid "rapid unscheduled heat dissipation" and the…

Ok so that rules out phones, laptops and other devices that tend to get roughed up over time but I would still consider using it as energy storage for the solar panel on my house for instance. As you have it isolated from the house in a specially built enclosure or garden shed it's less likely to get damaged and even if it is the damage can be manageable. Then again in these cases it's more of a matter of how cheap i…

For large stationary batteries the number of charge cycles you can get is a major factor.

Re: New batteries could make phones, drones, and electric cars last twice as long

#58

Post by marcosdumay »

smanuel wrote: post #48
Animats wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, if we had all the "2x improvements" in batteries from press releases, batteries would be powering airliners by now. "Yet just as safe and long-lasting as the lithium ion batteries used in consumer electronics" is not happy-making as energy density increases. The existing lithium-ion technology just barely keeps from overheating and blowing itself up, and it takes about six safety devices to prevent that. (Latest…

Lithium-sulfur batteries look like the most possible candidate as the next incremental evolution of the lithium ion batteries. Lithium metal... not so much. But I really hope for revolution in this space, rather than incremental changes. This will boost and give wings to so many other inventions.

Lithium-sulfur only works hot. It may be a great option for huge batteries connected to the power grid, but plugging a 200°C inflammable battery to your laptop might not increase its safety.

Re: New batteries could make phones, drones, and electric cars last twice as long

#59

Post by tcoppi »

yread wrote: post #32
semi-extrinsic wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you really want to avoid is destroying non-rechargeable lithium manganese batteries, like a CR123. There are some true horror stories out there, like this one: http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?120888-RO... TL;DR: guy used stock flashlight with two stock CR123 batteries in series. One discharged faster than the other, so it got reverse charged from the one holding more charge, and promptly vente…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fG_UuPmLO1c With nasty cough as a bonus

Wow, that was an incredibly unsafe thing to do. I guess I shouldn't be surprised that they weren't at least doing it outside, much less under a vent hood or at least wearing good masks.

Re: New batteries could make phones, drones, and electric cars last twice as long

#60

Post by jp555 »

Retr0spectrum wrote: post #3

It seems like we're always hearing about the next big thing in battery technology, but they seem to stay in research forever, and never hit the consumer market. The most exciting part of this, is that they say the'll be in consumer devices early 2017. I'd love to have one in my quadcopter!

Once production at scale comes into play most of these "breakthroughs" result in sub 10% gains annually. But 5%-10% yearly battery progress compounds over decades to be gargantuan improvements.

Think of Rule 72, a 7.5% annual battery improvement rate compounds to a doubling every 9.6 years, which is amazing.

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