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Organisms might be quantum machines

bbc.com

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Re: Organisms might be quantum machines

#31

Post by jheriko »

raddar4 wrote: post #11
saskurambo wrote: post #4

This can open new research also on how works for example homeopathy and acupunture?

There does seem to be a body of anecdotal evidence pointing towards some kind actual happening "outside what we know" for phenomenon like the "kundalini" effect, however I don't see how the mechanism of action could be quantum in nature. That is, I suppose, not saying much as I don't see how it could work in any case, but I think more exploratory work does need to be done. Then again, I don't really know and if anyon…

i think there are studies on the much broader range of phenomena associated with meditation in general. its hard to find good examples of such things quickly with google though because there are a large number of poor quality studies too...

i don't think its particularly crazy to suggest that people practising mental discipline can alter their minds or perceptions.

its very easy to convince oneself that the left arm is paralysed for instance... or to hallucinate by fixating on an object or point in space.

also, its very well evidenced that psychology has an effect on health...

on the other hand there is no evidence of, nor any need for explanations involving, "mystical energies" of any kind, as far as i can see.

Re: Organisms might be quantum machines

#32

Post by danbruc »

ekianjo wrote: post #29
danbruc wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was not meant dismissive, the placebo effect is of course a well established and very real effect. But there is nothing more than the placebo effect in homeopathy.

Note that most of what we call placebo effect is actually return to the mean. True placebo effect exists but its much more limited than what people usually think.

Naively I would expect regression toward the mean to weaken the placebo effect - using a placebo seems a better idea in light cases and even in a controlled study you would probably not be allowed to only use placebos in severe cases so that it seems more likely that the situation worsens which would reduce the observed strength of the placebo effect in the other direction.

Re: Organisms might be quantum machines

#33

Post by jheriko »

flukus wrote: post #25
raddar4 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There does seem to be a body of anecdotal evidence pointing towards some kind actual happening "outside what we know" for phenomenon like the "kundalini" effect, however I don't see how the mechanism of action could be quantum in nature. That is, I suppose, not saying much as I don't see how it could work in any case, but I think more exploratory work does need to be done. Then again, I don't really know and if anyon…

> There does seem to be a body of anecdotal evidence So no actual evidence then?

anecdotal evidence is evidence, its just not of a good quality.

a lot of things rely on it for their justification. the best example i think i can give in the context of wanky hipster startups would be "agile methodologies"... despite the completely different area of concern they are also attributed properties which are inherently difficult to measure and perform experimentation with. i've seen very little evidence except for anecdotal evidence to back the claims surrounding them (although certainly, they are based on quite reasonable conclusions to reach with no evidence at all - by using logic and "common sense" to derive from better known quantities)

Re: Organisms might be quantum machines

#35

Post by gnaritas »

saskurambo wrote: post #9
danbruc wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Homeopathy does not work except for the placebo effect, there are several studies.

Actually the mechanism of homeopathy isn't know. Clinic results are differente from test with placebo

There is no mechanism of homeopathy other than the placebo effect, homeopathy is pseudo-scientific bullshit, simple as that, it's fiction. If you think it works, it only demonstrates that you have no understanding of the placebo effect and are easily taken in by bullshit.

> Clinic results are differente from test with placebo reply

No they aren't.

Re: Organisms might be quantum machines

#36

Post by gnaritas »

raddar4 wrote: post #11
saskurambo wrote: post #4

This can open new research also on how works for example homeopathy and acupunture?

There does seem to be a body of anecdotal evidence pointing towards some kind actual happening "outside what we know" for phenomenon like the "kundalini" effect, however I don't see how the mechanism of action could be quantum in nature. That is, I suppose, not saying much as I don't see how it could work in any case, but I think more exploratory work does need to be done. Then again, I don't really know and if anyon…

There's a body of anecdotal evidence for anything you can imagine, that's we don't value anecdotal evidence once we've looked for real evidence and not found it. Most people are greatly confused by the placebo effect, it is the source of all these anecdotal experiences.

Re: Organisms might be quantum machines

#37

Post by avindroth »

jheriko wrote: post #33
flukus wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There does seem to be a body of anecdotal evidence So no actual evidence then?

anecdotal evidence is evidence, its just not of a good quality. a lot of things rely on it for their justification. the best example i think i can give in the context of wanky hipster startups would be "agile methodologies"... despite the completely different area of concern they are also attributed properties which are inherently difficult to measure and perform experimentation with. i've seen very little evidence e…

Anecdotal evidence is evidence. But just one data point.

The bias most commit is thinking that a data point is more valuable because you know more about it.

Just because you know the story behind it doesn't mean it's more important.

Re: Organisms might be quantum machines

#38

Post by mlvljr »

bad_alloc wrote: post #3
mixedmath wrote: post #2

Only somewhat related: I'm currently reading Anathem by Neal Stephenson. I'm nearing the end of the book, and the concept that human brains might use quantum processes in the decision-making process is a very important and prevalent idea in the novel. [Although he takes some artistic license --- it is only a novel, afterall]. So I've been thinking, at least passively, about organisms being quantum machines quite a bi…

Tha's what Roger Penrose argued in "Shadows of the Mind" where he theorizes about quantum effects in the human brain and how they might give rise to conciousness [1]. There's some criticism about it, because the brain is pretty warm and decoherence should disturb all quantum states so much taht they become unusable, but it is still a research topic if "warm" quantum states can exist. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki…

Was searching for Penrose being mentioned, going to post myself otherwise (immediately struck me as well :)).

Re: Organisms might be quantum machines

#39

Post by jheriko »

avindroth wrote: post #37
jheriko wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

anecdotal evidence is evidence, its just not of a good quality. a lot of things rely on it for their justification. the best example i think i can give in the context of wanky hipster startups would be "agile methodologies"... despite the completely different area of concern they are also attributed properties which are inherently difficult to measure and perform experimentation with. i've seen very little evidence e…

Anecdotal evidence is evidence. But just one data point. The bias most commit is thinking that a data point is more valuable because you know more about it. Just because you know the story behind it doesn't mean it's more important.

i'd say its often too wooly to even call a single data point, but in other cases its obviously very many.

if 1000s of people are telling the same story, thats 1000s of potential data points... they lose value from being ill defined rather than being small in number.

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