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Organisms might be quantum machines

bbc.com

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Re: Organisms might be quantum machines

#11

Post by raddar4 »

saskurambo wrote: post #4

This can open new research also on how works for example homeopathy and acupunture?

There does seem to be a body of anecdotal evidence pointing towards some kind actual happening "outside what we know" for phenomenon like the "kundalini" effect, however I don't see how the mechanism of action could be quantum in nature. That is, I suppose, not saying much as I don't see how it could work in any case, but I think more exploratory work does need to be done. Then again, I don't really know and if anyone does know of any scientific studies on kundalini phenomenon, I'd love to read about them.

Re: Organisms might be quantum machines

#12

Post by danbruc »

saskurambo wrote: post #9
danbruc wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Homeopathy does not work except for the placebo effect, there are several studies.

Actually the mechanism of homeopathy isn't know. Clinic results are differente from test with placebo

Do you have a reliable source for that? I omitted adding a source because if you look for scientific research on homeopathy you find essentially only studies stating that it does not work, Wikipedia has plenty of references.

Re: Organisms might be quantum machines

#13

Post by runT1ME »

bad_alloc wrote: post #3
mixedmath wrote: post #2

Only somewhat related: I'm currently reading Anathem by Neal Stephenson. I'm nearing the end of the book, and the concept that human brains might use quantum processes in the decision-making process is a very important and prevalent idea in the novel. [Although he takes some artistic license --- it is only a novel, afterall]. So I've been thinking, at least passively, about organisms being quantum machines quite a bi…

Tha's what Roger Penrose argued in "Shadows of the Mind" where he theorizes about quantum effects in the human brain and how they might give rise to conciousness [1]. There's some criticism about it, because the brain is pretty warm and decoherence should disturb all quantum states so much taht they become unusable, but it is still a research topic if "warm" quantum states can exist. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki…

The novel was based on Penrose's Earlier book I believe.

Re: Organisms might be quantum machines

#14

Post by DanBC »

alex_anglin wrote: post #10
saskurambo wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually the mechanism of homeopathy isn't know. Clinic results are differente from test with placebo

Source?

The source is not in any way controversial.

When you run a well-conducted trial you find zero benefit to homeopathy. When you run a poorly-conducted study, with poor blinding or weak randomization you find some benefits to homeopathy. When you don't even run a study, but just give people homeopathy in clinics they'll tell you it works because they say they can feel a difference.

Re: Organisms might be quantum machines

#15

Post by kakarot »

danbruc wrote: post #5

Tl;dr Biology is applied chemistry, chemistry is applied quantum physics and in some cases chemistry is a leaky abstraction and does not perfectly explain what is going on in organisms. Three examples - photosynthesis being more efficient than expected, birds sensing Earth's magnetic field by an unknown mechanism and a lack of understanding how olfaction works in detail - are presented but besides that there are no n…

I was under the assumption that the working theory is birds share a similar feature as fruit flies and possibly foxes. The cones that allow us to see blue light actually work as compasses when suspended in a fluid, and they are not attached to the retina of a fruit fly but are suspended in their eye and thus shape incoming visual patterns around magnetic fields

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetoreception

Re: Organisms might be quantum machines

#16

Post by djsumdog »

In Kim Stanley Robinson's fictional series on Mars (Red, Blue, Green Mars), researches discover that memory is actually based on quantum physics.

It's a really good series I highly recommend, and it's won awards because Robinson put a lot of research into make the book believable. The descriptions and time scales used in the book make it very accessible to engineers while also containing incredible character development.

Anyway, memory could be very well related to the quantum world. There's a lot we do not understand about the brain, and what we do know raises a bunch of questions about how does our brain store information when it seems to have such limited potential capacity?

Re: Organisms might be quantum machines

#17

Post by fizixer »

danbruc wrote: post #5

Tl;dr Biology is applied chemistry, chemistry is applied quantum physics and in some cases chemistry is a leaky abstraction and does not perfectly explain what is going on in organisms. Three examples - photosynthesis being more efficient than expected, birds sensing Earth's magnetic field by an unknown mechanism and a lack of understanding how olfaction works in detail - are presented but besides that there are no n…

> ... chemistry is a leaky abstraction ...

Well I second you on that. Even stronger:

All of (theoretical) science is a leaky abstraction. When an area is new, people are doing the spherical-cow-approximation willy nilly. After it gets established, corner cases start to surface.

Incidentally, theoretical physicists are the masters of creating spherical-cow-approximations and leaky-abstractions. They're always going for the next big unexplored territory. E.g., once QM got established as a theory, they moved on to high-energy, while there is about 1000x more work to be done picking up the pieces of QM in the areas of solid-state-physics and molecular-chemistry. (largely speaking that is; not everyone is like that).

Re: Organisms might be quantum machines

#18

Post by djsumdog »

danbruc wrote: post #12
saskurambo wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually the mechanism of homeopathy isn't know. Clinic results are differente from test with placebo

Do you have a reliable source for that? I omitted adding a source because if you look for scientific research on homeopathy you find essentially only studies stating that it does not work, Wikipedia has plenty of references.

I too would be interested in a source. I don't think that homeopathy works, but I am willing to admit I can be wrong. Doubt is essential to make progress:

http://khanism.org/science/doubt/

Also, the placebo effect shouldn't be used dismissively. If you convince someone they should be feeling pain (tell them they're next to a low frequency transmitter that causes pain when they're really next to an empty speaker box), that pain is real in the sense their nervous system can have a physical reaction to it. It is in their heads, but perceptions can generate physical responses.

Re: Organisms might be quantum machines

#19

Post by waterphone »

saskurambo wrote: post #9
danbruc wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Homeopathy does not work except for the placebo effect, there are several studies.

Actually the mechanism of homeopathy isn't know. Clinic results are differente from test with placebo

That is simply not correct.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeopathy#Efficacy

https://nccih.nih.gov/health/homeopathy#hed4

http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/homeo.html

Re: Organisms might be quantum machines

#20

Post by Aelinsaar »

kakarot wrote: post #15
danbruc wrote: post #5

Tl;dr Biology is applied chemistry, chemistry is applied quantum physics and in some cases chemistry is a leaky abstraction and does not perfectly explain what is going on in organisms. Three examples - photosynthesis being more efficient than expected, birds sensing Earth's magnetic field by an unknown mechanism and a lack of understanding how olfaction works in detail - are presented but besides that there are no n…

I was under the assumption that the working theory is birds share a similar feature as fruit flies and possibly foxes. The cones that allow us to see blue light actually work as compasses when suspended in a fluid, and they are not attached to the retina of a fruit fly but are suspended in their eye and thus shape incoming visual patterns around magnetic fields https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetoreception

That's fascinating, but birds do have their rods and cones attached to the retina. IIRC birds are though to be in some way detecting either directly, or through secondary effect, polarization of light.
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