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PowerShell is open sourced and is available on Linux

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Re: PowerShell is open sourced and is available on Linux

#471

Post by pjmlp »

baq wrote: post #433
pjmlp wrote: post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is not quite true. Many of us doing enterprise consulting do jump between Java and .NET projects all the time. Sometimes even doing mixed projects, like the UI in .NET and the backend in Java.

i'll grant you that after a very brief consideration > UI in .NET and the backend in Java. makes a lot of sense.

The problem with native desktop Java applications that although Swing is quite powerful, it requires developers to go through books like "Filthy Rich Clients"[0] to really take advantage of it. Which very few do.

To this day I still meet developers that aren't aware how to change the default L&F to native widgets, for example.

Whereas Windows Forms and WPF already provide a much easier out of the box experience, and have tooling like Blend available.

I am curious what the JavaFX sessions at JavaONE will cover.

[0] http://filthyrichclients.org/

Re: PowerShell is open sourced and is available on Linux

#472

Post by haberman »

mbrumlow wrote: post #465
haberman wrote: post #453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You are considering it just RAW text when it is actually formatted text that has been parsable for years with common unix command line tools. Parsing command output with sed/awk/etc (ie. "common unix command line tools") is absolutely an ad hoc parser. Let me give you an example that I recently ran into. I have a tool that parses the output of "readelf -sW", which dumps symbols and their sizes. The output normally…

I happen to find your example of why to use a object a bit hilarious. You are right, readelf has the object in a structure -- because that is what elf is... typedef struct { uint32_t st_name; unsigned char st_info; unsigned char st_other; uint16_t st_shndx; Elf64_Addr st_value; uint64_t st_size; } Elf64_Sym; If you wanted the object why did you need readelf in the first place? Why not just read the elf format directl…

You're asking me why I use a tool instead of parsing a binary format manually? Does that really need explanation?

If that is your attitude, why use any command-line tools ever? Why use "ls" when you can call readdir()? Why use "ps" when you can parse /proc?

You just pointed me to Kernighan and Pike a second ago. I didn't expect I would need to justify why piping standard tools together is better than programming everything manually.

Re: PowerShell is open sourced and is available on Linux

#473

Post by satysin »

Grishnakh wrote: post #373
satysin wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is about Microsoft being a neutral player in a multiple platform world. Microsoft want people using their tools as it means they are more likely to use their platforms and services. Be it PowerShell on Linux or Bash on Windows or VSCode on macOS they want to make the best tools in the hope that it will push companies/developers towards Azure/SQL/Cloud as that is where the future for MS is. Windows is on life suppo…

>Windows is on life support and they know this. How is Windows "on life support"? Desktop/laptop computers are not going anywhere, at least until they invent some kind of VR (and no, mobile OSes like iOS are not suitable for doing real work and managing data in a networked environment the way desktop OSes are). Windows still has at least 90% of the OS market. People and businesses could change to an alternative, but…

Windows revenue has been shrinking for a few years now. The growth is in Azure and related cloud technologies.

Sure Windows probably won't ever go away (until a massive paradigm shift as you mention) but businesses are not upgrading like they once were. You have a mixture of reasons for this, BYOD has chipped away at some of it and forced companies to allow non-Microsoft (i.e. Apple) systems to connect to the network for remote and onsite.

With more and more work being done in the browser it makes specialised software that forces upgrades to Windows out of the picture.

I have worked for a number of large companies and recently the reduction of annual spend on Windows clients is pretty staggering. With almost all "managers" going BYOD with their (mostly) MacBook Pro's and onsite machines lasting a good few years longer than they used to it means we just don't need to buy as much from Microsoft.

You can see Microsoft know whats up as well. Windows Enterprise subscriptions and Azure are the future for Windows in business. For home users Windows is already "dead" from a revenue perspective with the exception of charging via the OEM at first sale. Android, macOS, iOS, tvOS, all the operating systems home users are aware of are free upgrades on supported devices. This is where Microsoft has a problem as obviously they support everything so they can't lock out some users with a "2011 Dell XPS". However going forward I expect we will see them do something along these lines with limitations around what minimum hardware is supported so you will only get upgraded to the latest Windows if you have AVX2 or such based hardware.

Re: PowerShell is open sourced and is available on Linux

#474

Post by omaranto »

lucb1e wrote: post #408
JeffreySnover wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is not quite right. At the end of the day it is all about automation. But we took the position that the way Admins automate is by scripting the things that they do in an interactive shell. Bruce Payette had a great way of saying it - he said that the lifecycle of 99% of scripts starts at the prompt and ends at the carriage return. Then, somethings you want to codify things so you put it into a script. Then as th…

That is not quite right either. I enter about 200 commands on a normal workday and write maybe two scripts a month in a shell language. A shell language should be a shell language, it's not merely a stepping stone to write a script after using a command just once. If that's what I'm looking for I'll use Python. And from the other side, Python would be a terrible shell (by default), and that's fine because that's not…

I thought Windows shipped with .NET which includes a command line C# compiler, csc.exe.

Re: PowerShell is open sourced and is available on Linux

#475

Post by jl6 »

itomato wrote: post #260
xl wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[Disclaimer: I work for Microsoft.] As far as I recall, the original impetus behind what became PowerShell (as handed down to us in a conference room by Ballmer himself, sometime around 2001) was to fill the gap between ops people who did enterprise administration manually with tools like MMC and engineers who automated enterprise administration with tools like C++/DCOM. The latter were necessary in a lot of cases, b…

Not "The IT Industry", surely only a subset of Windows systems managers.

I personally find that the term "IT" has become a bit of a code word for "Enterprise Wintel", and that anyone working outside of the gravitational pull of Microsoft prefers to describe themselves as working in "tech"

Re: PowerShell is open sourced and is available on Linux

#476

Post by temac »

madmax96 wrote: post #397
mbrumlow wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find that to be the issue. You are considering it just RAW text when it is actually formatted text that has been parsable for years with common unix command line tools. It not being in the format you consider a structured object does not mean it's not a object or even parsable. If you are using ad hoc regex I suspect you are not using all the tools available to you. I feel like Kernighan and Pike do a much better j…

So much this. What the M$ community fails to see is that text streams can be consumed by __everyone__. We've basically all accepted the fact that programs are used longer and in different ways than we'd expect. A brittle object model can only lead to vendor lock in and indigestible output.

It's even more than that: text formatting allows the use of generic filtering and text processing tools. Whereas if you are using objects, you will tend to use less on-the-fly command line composition, and write or reuse more tools dedicated to one particular object or the other. In the end I'm not sure keeping the structuring as the default use case yields an usage so much improved in the real world, because if you work on a broad number of types you will tend to need to know more specialised tools, instead of generic ones, and have less higher-order composition tools at your disposal.

Now of course you can always format to text from your structured object, but this does not matter. What matters is what is convenient in the proposed UI, and what is mainly practiced in the real world because of such convenience and the amplification loop it creates between tools authors and users.

Also some objects are originally handled in text form, and their structured decomposition is extremely complex compared to an informal description and the naturally refinable heuristic which comes with it. For example you can grep into a source code in any language (with more or less efficiency depending on the language, but at least if there is a unique symbol you will find it), whereas trying to get and handle it in a structured way basically means you would need half of a (modular) compiler, and a huge manual to describe the structure, and possibly a non trivial amount of code to actually do the lookup.

The PowerShell approach is not all-bad, though, and obviously there are some usages where it superior to text based shells. But for a day to day usage as a general purpose shell, and a programmer shell, I'll stick to the Unix approach.

Re: PowerShell is open sourced and is available on Linux

#477

Post by viraptor »

libraryatnight wrote: post #240
emodendroket wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're supposed to avoid the aliases in scripts. Or that's what's recommended anyway.

Yes, this makes for much easier to read code for people down the road :) I think OPS folks (myself included) sometimes create things thinking nobody but them will use them, then an occasion arises to share, and you're stuck with something functional but horrible to read. It took just one such occasion for me to convert to writing everything from the perspective that 'other people may need to use this.'

There seem to be a few tools to do it for you automatically. ctrl+shift+a if you're using powershell studio for example. Or https://gist.github.com/DBremen/9db6632423d673ff18f6

Re: PowerShell is open sourced and is available on Linux

#478

Post by otabdeveloper »

kevan wrote: post #19
Analemma_ wrote: post #6

PowerShell is my guilty pleasure of the computing world. Once you've piped strongly-typed objects around between your shell commands, text scraping seems barbaric by comparison. The problem, of course, is that you can't use all that power for much, since the pool of PS-compatible tools and utilities is much shallower than it is for Unix shells. I'm really hoping this will help spur a new wave of PowerShell-compatible…

I really hope this drives a new wave of experimentation and development in shell interaction. Text as the lowest common denominator will never go away but having more powerful constructs available will be great for a lot of use cases.

Check out the language I wrote for that exact use case: http://tkatchev.bitbucket.org/tab/

Re: PowerShell is open sourced and is available on Linux

#479

Post by sixothree »

aruggirello wrote: post #167
williamjackson wrote: post #104

And now PowerShell on Bash on Ubuntu on Windows is a thing. (Spoiler alert, it doesn't work very well right now. The cursor keeps jumping to the top of the console and overwriting existing text.)

No, PowerShell on Bash on Ubuntu on a Windows VM on a Linux host is a thing :)

And soon Windows VM's will be able to run inside of other Windows VM's so..... VM's all the way down.

Re: PowerShell is open sourced and is available on Linux

#480

Post by vlangber »

vardump wrote: post #409
artimaeis wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Java seemed to have a lot more options for deployments and monitoring for a long time. More advanced 3rd party libraries in general. It had simply been around longer and thus had those tools available. Now that C# has been standard for a while almost all of those tools have a C# equivalent. As a .NET dev I'd actually argue that the things available to C# now are actually better (especially Visual Studio), but that's…

> ...things available to C# now are actually better (especially Visual Studio), but that's certainly biased. You call Visual Studio good? Have you actually used it? VS2015 is painfully slow, and yes, I've installed all of the updates and I have no plugins or such. Heck, even Eclipse feels zippy compared to it. Something as simple as finding next text search match takes about a second. Changing to a different source c…

The latest update to VS2015 fixes a lot of the performance issues for C#.
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