With Windows 10, Microsoft Disregards User Choice and Privacy • Hacker News Board

Re: With Windows 10, Microsoft Disregards User Choice and Privacy

#351

Post by cptskippy » Thu, Aug 18, 2016, 2:31 PM UTC

syshum wrote: post #337

supernovae wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if you opt out, you're still sending telemetry. Unless your telling me your buying a smart phone and never installing an app. It takes telemetry for apple store to check your system and see if your apps need updating. it takes telemetry to check if your icloud is backed up. it takes telemetry to say "it will take you 20 minutes to drive home" notifications that popup..

>>Unless your telling me your buying a smart phone and never installing an app. I have a smartphone that does not send info to google or apple. Runs Andriod with no google account, no Google Services, and my app store is FDriod not the play store. You assumption that everyone that owns a smart phone is a icloud user or uses the apple store is ridiculous

I wouldn't say it's ridiculous. The number of people who do what you do is minuscule. The people with the technical ability and knowledge to do that is also a very small subset of the population.

You can stand on your high horse and tell everyone they have a choice and to not stand for such things but it's disingenuous at best. There are people out there without the technical expertise or fundamental ability to obtain such knowledge. There are people who are financially incapable of doing it as well. You can spout off about how affordable it is but your phone probably cost them a month's salary.

Re: With Windows 10, Microsoft Disregards User Choice and Privacy

#352

Post by ionised » Thu, Aug 18, 2016, 2:36 PM UTC

syshum wrote: post #337

supernovae wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if you opt out, you're still sending telemetry. Unless your telling me your buying a smart phone and never installing an app. It takes telemetry for apple store to check your system and see if your apps need updating. it takes telemetry to check if your icloud is backed up. it takes telemetry to say "it will take you 20 minutes to drive home" notifications that popup..

>>Unless your telling me your buying a smart phone and never installing an app. I have a smartphone that does not send info to google or apple. Runs Andriod with no google account, no Google Services, and my app store is FDriod not the play store. You assumption that everyone that owns a smart phone is a icloud user or uses the apple store is ridiculous

* I have a smartphone that does not send info to google or apple.

Runs Andriod with no google account, no Google Services, and my app store is FDriod not the play store. *

Same here. It's really not as difficult or inconvenient as people assume.

Re: With Windows 10, Microsoft Disregards User Choice and Privacy

#353

Post by hendersoon » Thu, Aug 18, 2016, 2:36 PM UTC

dredmorbius wrote: post #285

hendersoon wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they're running malware with administrator rights, they're already lost by definition. The kind of people that would leave settings like this at the default generally don't read tips n' tricks guides to tweaking windows. They simply don't care about that sort of thing. Of course _some_ do, as you would no doubt reply, but again it comes down to numbers-- that volume doesn't justify locking it down. They aren't clu…

My point was: create an easily bypassed system, and the black hats will come up with ways for people to easily bypass the system. All the children aren't above average. Your average computer user -- even those who are otherwise intelligent and capable of handling Shit The World Throws Them -- isn't particularly tech savvy. It's like anti-terrorism defenses. The terrorist has to get lucky once. The defender has to be…

That's Microsoft's argument in a nutshell, yep. I strongly disagree with it.

I play videogames, so I'm forced to use Win10. But if I wasn't, I would have switched to OSX over this.

Re: With Windows 10, Microsoft Disregards User Choice and Privacy

#354

Post by hendersoon » Thu, Aug 18, 2016, 2:38 PM UTC

thomasjudge wrote: post #267

hendersoon wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe this famous comic said it best: http://www.bonkersworld.net/organizational-charts/ For all Satya's promises, nothing _really_ changed.

off topic, but on the Oracle one, "legal" should be "sales"

Assuming engineering was size X, sales would be 10X and legal 40X. Oracle licensing and legal are unbelievable snakes.

Re: With Windows 10, Microsoft Disregards User Choice and Privacy

#355

Post by hendersoon » Thu, Aug 18, 2016, 2:40 PM UTC

Endy wrote: post #308

hendersoon wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Benefits of Win10 AU are: 1) Linux on windows runtime beta (commonly called bash shell, but it's much more) 2) dark theme 3) extensions in the Edge browser 4) Vastly improved stylus support 5) Slightly changed start menu 6) Improved action center, if you use UWP apps

1 is the reason I'll never use Win10. I don't trust Linux, even in a VM. Too many people have access and I am forced to assume it's insecure by default. My assumption will never change. 2 is inconsequential. I can use a "dark theme" in Win7; all I did was disable Aero and set up my desktop the same way I had since Win95. 3 Firefox 4 Okay, good reason. 5 The Win10 (actually, WinVista+) start menu is pointless. 6 In th…

You trust a closed source OS from a developer already proven to be willing to engineer backdoors and lie about it over an open-source OS? Can you explain your reasoning?

I don't actually _trust_ either one, but I would certainly rank Windows below Linux.

Also note that the linux runtime in Win10 is not installed or activated by default; you need to put the OS in developer mode and install it yourself. If an attacker can do that externally, he already owns your system.

Re: With Windows 10, Microsoft Disregards User Choice and Privacy

#356

Post by hendersoon » Thu, Aug 18, 2016, 2:43 PM UTC

ksk wrote: post #265

hendersoon wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Put simply, Apple and Google allow users to opt-out. You can run Android and not send Google a single byte of information. You can't run google's _apps_ and do that-- gmail, google calendar, the google play store, and so on. But it isn't mandatory. Telemetry is in the apps, not the OS. Even if I set telemetry to "basic" (the lowest it will go), turn off Cortana, and don't use IE or Edge (or any other MS app), Windows…

>Even if I set telemetry to "basic" (the lowest it will go), turn off Cortana, and don't use IE or Edge (or any other MS app), Windows 10 sends telemetry to Microsoft. That's not OK. It doesn't on my setup. I have neutered that shit completely.

Yep, me too. But I needed to run a third-party program, configure firewall rules, and change group policies to do so.

Re: With Windows 10, Microsoft Disregards User Choice and Privacy

#357

Post by hendersoon » Thu, Aug 18, 2016, 2:48 PM UTC

cptskippy wrote: post #351

syshum wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>Unless your telling me your buying a smart phone and never installing an app. I have a smartphone that does not send info to google or apple. Runs Andriod with no google account, no Google Services, and my app store is FDriod not the play store. You assumption that everyone that owns a smart phone is a icloud user or uses the apple store is ridiculous

I wouldn't say it's ridiculous. The number of people who do what you do is minuscule. The people with the technical ability and knowledge to do that is also a very small subset of the population. You can stand on your high horse and tell everyone they have a choice and to not stand for such things but it's disingenuous at best. There are people out there without the technical expertise or fundamental ability to obtai…

My statement was that the telemetry wasn't baked into the OS itself-- and it isn't. It's in the programs you _run_ on the OS, so the user has agency. How many users opt for the extreme inconvenience of turning off Google Play Services and all the Google apps isn't really the point-- they _could_.

Windows telemetry is baked in the OS. I believe that is a fundamental difference.

Also, I don't think it's disingenuous to say that users have different expectations of mobile and desktop operating systems. Apple's iOS has always sent basic telemetry; until recently Windows didn't.

Apple doesn't have a history of compromising users' privacy then lying about it, unlike Microsoft with Skype.

And finally, while Apple is sending some telemetry, they are actually serious about their users' privacy and are collecting data with a technical solution that truly does guarantee anonymity.

https://www.wired.com/2016/06/apples-differential-privacy-co...

Re: With Windows 10, Microsoft Disregards User Choice and Privacy

#358

Post by ionised » Thu, Aug 18, 2016, 2:49 PM UTC

tobias3 wrote: post #37

joering2 wrote: post #13

Microsoft paid $10k [1] to one single count of this deceiving practice and decided to settle not to pursue further. Me and my young children see Transvaginal Mesh Implants class action lawsuit invitation few times a day for probably a year now on multitude of national TV stations. When will some tech-literate lawyer start gathering evidence to file a class action lawsuit over what MS just did?? [1] http://www.theverg…

The EULA you agree to during Windows 10 installation prohibits class action lawsuits, but Windows 7 should be fair game...

EULA is not necessarily enforceable.

Re: With Windows 10, Microsoft Disregards User Choice and Privacy

#359

Post by Grishnakh » Thu, Aug 18, 2016, 3:00 PM UTC

creshal wrote: post #253

Grishnakh wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's some lawsuits over MS forcing/tricking people into "upgrading" to Windows 10. This is something entirely different; this is MS not providing software updates in the way that some people would prefer. Customers don't have a right to tell their vendors exactly how to provide ongoing services. If you don't like it, find a better vendor. Also, the only successful lawsuit I've heard of against MS recently was the…

> using their EULA which has been proven in court. No. Microsoft's EULA is void in large parts of Europe. Consumer protection laws are very strong over here.

I'd love to see MS force a showdown over this: since the EU is dumb enough to run all their computers on Windows, MS could force them to make an exception for them, or else. What's the EU going to do when all their government computers suddenly shut down? Toss Satya in jail? He's in the US. You don't make yourself completely and utterly dependent on someone and then tell them how to behave.

Re: With Windows 10, Microsoft Disregards User Choice and Privacy

#360

Post by creshal » Thu, Aug 18, 2016, 4:32 PM UTC

Grishnakh wrote: post #359

creshal wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> using their EULA which has been proven in court. No. Microsoft's EULA is void in large parts of Europe. Consumer protection laws are very strong over here.

I'd love to see MS force a showdown over this: since the EU is dumb enough to run all their computers on Windows, MS could force them to make an exception for them, or else . What's the EU going to do when all their government computers suddenly shut down? Toss Satya in jail? He's in the US. You don't make yourself completely and utterly dependent on someone and then tell them how to behave.

> I'd love to see MS force a showdown over this

Slow down with your corporate boner.

In the past, Microsoft has caved in to every single government demand yet. IE-free Windows, encryption-free Windows NT, … you name it, Microsoft did it and wagged their tail happily.