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With Windows 10, Microsoft Disregards User Choice and Privacy

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Re: With Windows 10, Microsoft Disregards User Choice and Privacy

#11

Should have just branded it Windows 7 SP2. But I guess everyone expects MS to support multiple branches of code forever. These discussions always avoid talking about the merits of data-driven design and always assume malicious intent.

Everyone understands the merits of data-driven design. There is heaps of merit. No point to further discussion.

Everyone does NOT agree on the ethics of force-feeding this model on non-technical users without meaningful and informed consent. Toss in lack of transparent or comprehensive opt-out and misleading adoption strategy and you have a real problem.

Microsoft's market share in consumer computing is still massive and what they decide to do matters. It is worth talking about.

Re: With Windows 10, Microsoft Disregards User Choice and Privacy

#12

  By default, Windows 10 sends an unprecedented amount of
  usage data back to Microsoft... location data, text 
  input, voice input, touch input, webpages you visit, and 
  telemetry data regarding your general usage of your 
  computer, including which programs you run and for how long.
Unprecedented for Microsoft or everyone? This is inline with what Google collects on Android.

  ...the fact remains that many users would much prefer to 
  opt out of these features in exchange for maintaining 
  their privacy.
Which they can do at any time, the initial setup permits opting out of almost all of this.

  A significant issue is the telemetry data the company 
  receives. While Microsoft insists that it aggregates and 
  anonymizes this data, it hasn’t explained just how it 
  does so. Microsoft also won’t say how long this data is 
  retained, instead providing only general timeframes.
Microsoft has been doing this since Windows XP as do Apple, Google, and Amazon for their respective OSes.

  Microsoft has tried to explain this lack of choice by 
  saying that Windows Update won’t function properly on 
  copies of the operating system with telemetry reporting 
  turned to its lowest level.
This is interesting because Windows 10 won't let you disable telemetry data entirely which upsets people. But most people probably want updates and the data necessary to determine which updates you've got installed on your computer are considered telemetry data by Microsoft and that information is essential in order to determine which updates are applicable or available. So does the minimum setting in Windows 10 collect more telemetry data than is necessary for Windows Update to function or not?

  But this is a false choice that is entirely of 
  Microsoft’s own creation. There’s no good reason why the 
  types of data Microsoft collects at each telemetry level 
  couldn’t be adjusted so that even at the lowest level of 
  telemetry collection, users could still benefit from 
  Windows Update and secure their machines from 
  vulnerabilities, without having to send back things like 
  app usage data or unique IDs like an IMEI number.
Did Microsoft actually say that the lowest level of telemetry data collection includes that information? That sounds like an assumption.

  And if this wasn’t bad enough, Microsoft’s questionable 
  upgrade tactics of bundling Windows 10 into various 
  levels of security updates have also managed to lower 
  users’ trust in the necessity of security updates. Sadly, 
  this has led some people to forego security updates 
  entirely, meaning that there are users whose machines are 
  at risk of being attacked.
Right or wrong, this is what Apple, Google, and Amazon currently. Sure it's nice to be able to look at each and every update to scrutinize what's going in but very few people do that. If you've every looked at the updates in earlier versions of Windows they're usually just KB numbers that you have to copy/paste into a browser to see what they actually fix.

Re: With Windows 10, Microsoft Disregards User Choice and Privacy

#13
Microsoft paid $10k [1] to one single count of this deceiving practice and decided to settle not to pursue further.

Me and my young children see Transvaginal Mesh Implants class action lawsuit invitation few times a day for probably a year now on multitude of national TV stations. When will some tech-literate lawyer start gathering evidence to file a class action lawsuit over what MS just did??

[1] http://www.theverge.com/2016/6/27/12046738/microsoft-pays-10...

Re: With Windows 10, Microsoft Disregards User Choice and Privacy

#14
post #5

Should have just branded it Windows 7 SP2. But I guess everyone expects MS to support multiple branches of code forever. These discussions always avoid talking about the merits of data-driven design and always assume malicious intent.

If I buy a computer and/or pay Microsoft money, I think it's reasonable for me to expect my computer to do what I'd like it to do (and only what I'd like it to do). The problem isn't data-driven design, it's how the data is being collected. I'd be annoyed if my home builder occasionally came through my house while I was gone in an attempt to analyze how I was arranging furniture and using my space. They could, undoub…

>I'd be annoyed if my home builder occasionally came through my house while I was gone in an attempt to analyze how I was arranging furniture and using my space. They could, undoubtedly, use that data to better their future work - but I'd still feel violated.

Too bad. If you sign a contract with your builder allowing him to do this, or you sign a contract allowing him to change your agreement and force new terms on you whenever he wants, then you brought this on yourself. Worse yet, if you willingly buy from a builder who is infamous for a decades-long history of horrible customer service and shoddy house designs and construction, I have zero sympathy for you.

Customers have a responsibility to research their purchases beforehand, and avoid patronizing vendors with poor reputations.

Re: With Windows 10, Microsoft Disregards User Choice and Privacy

#15

By default, Windows 10 sends an unprecedented amount of usage data back to Microsoft... location data, text input, voice input, touch input, webpages you visit, and telemetry data regarding your general usage of your computer, including which programs you run and for how long. Unprecedented for Microsoft or everyone? This is inline with what Google collects on Android. ...the fact remains that many users would much p…

>>> Apple, Google, and Amazon currently

So in your world 2 wrongs make a right... because "everyone else" is doing it is a justification for you?

See I was taught from a young age that just because my friends did something incredibly stupid, illegal, or immoral that dis not give me license to commit the offense.

Re: With Windows 10, Microsoft Disregards User Choice and Privacy

#16
post #2

Some highlights: Microsoft installed an app in users’ system trays advertising the free upgrade to Windows 10. Not satisfied, the company eventually made Windows 10 a recommended update so users receiving critical security updates were now also downloading an entirely new operating system onto their machines without their knowledge. This is essentially equivalent to saying: You've been running whatever version of Win…

So all the talk about the "new" Microsoft has been for nothing.

Re: With Windows 10, Microsoft Disregards User Choice and Privacy

#17
I upgraded willingly so the deceptive upgrade practices, while deplorable, didn't really affect me. What does affect me is that Microsoft refuses to let me control my computer.

- If you turn off Windows Defender Real Time Protection it explicitly tells you "You can turn this off, but if it's off for a while we'll turn it back on". It turns itself on upon next reboot, it seems.

- You can't turn off Windows Update. It will always end up downloading new updates.

- Once an update is scheduled for a restart you can only delay a few times and it will then force the restart.

- You can't remove worthless apps like Microsoft Groove and OneDrive integration.

- They are continuing to try to weasel the Windows Store into my life by buying up or forcing exclusives (games), with all the drawbacks of UWP.

Microsoft, I promise I know what I'm doing and the risks and benefits of each action I want to perform. I own my hardware, I'd like to control the software I licensed. I am well aware of other OS options and I use Linux & OS X often, but neither can compare to the gaming library available on Windows which is my primary use case for my desktop.

Re: With Windows 10, Microsoft Disregards User Choice and Privacy

#18
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I buy a computer and/or pay Microsoft money, I think it's reasonable for me to expect my computer to do what I'd like it to do (and only what I'd like it to do). The problem isn't data-driven design, it's how the data is being collected. I'd be annoyed if my home builder occasionally came through my house while I was gone in an attempt to analyze how I was arranging furniture and using my space. They could, undoub…

>I'd be annoyed if my home builder occasionally came through my house while I was gone in an attempt to analyze how I was arranging furniture and using my space. They could, undoubtedly, use that data to better their future work - but I'd still feel violated. Too bad. If you sign a contract with your builder allowing him to do this, or you sign a contract allowing him to change your agreement and force new terms on y…

While true, this also gets into the ethical, moral and legal obligation a company has when for all practical purposes they have a monopoly on a market segment.

This type of action is what got MS is legal trouble in the EU and US in the 90's

Re: With Windows 10, Microsoft Disregards User Choice and Privacy

#19
post #2

Some highlights: Microsoft installed an app in users’ system trays advertising the free upgrade to Windows 10. Not satisfied, the company eventually made Windows 10 a recommended update so users receiving critical security updates were now also downloading an entirely new operating system onto their machines without their knowledge. This is essentially equivalent to saying: You've been running whatever version of Win…

So all the talk about the "new" Microsoft has been for nothing.

THIS is the new "new" Microsoft.

Re: With Windows 10, Microsoft Disregards User Choice and Privacy

#20
post #2

Some highlights: Microsoft installed an app in users’ system trays advertising the free upgrade to Windows 10. Not satisfied, the company eventually made Windows 10 a recommended update so users receiving critical security updates were now also downloading an entirely new operating system onto their machines without their knowledge. This is essentially equivalent to saying: You've been running whatever version of Win…

> Specifically, when prompted with a Windows 10 update, if the > user chose to decline it by hitting the ‘X’ in the upper right > hand corner, Microsoft interpreted that as consent to download > Windows 10.

So what? I clicked that X multiple times and it didn't _install_. It may have _downloaded_, I'm not sure, but did not install.

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