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Flip the stick

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Re: Flip the stick

#41

Post by ibsulon »

fforw wrote: post #27

Don't like world hunger? Starve people yourself! Don't like murder? Start killing people!

Obviously, some problems are harder than others. However, many of us come from backgrounds of some privilege. You have a computer and likely have the capacity to program. You speak English, the current language of commerce, and you likely live in a country where capital is available. You were born on at least first base.

That means you're in a position to gather the resources to make a difference in these problems, even if you can't start today.

Re: Flip the stick

#43

Post by lsc »

mquander wrote: post #42
lsc wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

because that worked so well for K5.

K5 was already toast by the time that came in.

You have a point. But the $5 for new accounts only helps if moderators ban undesirable accounts. The $5 is a way to give the banhammer a bit more meaning. are you prepared to ban people for commenting like the above?

Personally, I don't think that harsh criticism is necessarily a bad thing. (I mean, the aforementioned comment was perhaps written without reading the article, I mean it doesn't make much sense in the context of the author actually doing those things... but I personally don't think that negative comments are always bad things.)

One thing I hate about the real world is that nobody ever calls me on my bullshit. I'm not saying I think K5 is the optimal form, but in many ways it's better than a place where everyone is always encouraging me and telling me what a great guy I am.

Re: Flip the stick

#44

Post by lsc »

andrewljohnson wrote: post #23
evansolomon wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, I think the 'pick your brain' approach would work better in a lot of cases. Particularly if you are inexperienced, young, etc. Personally, I would almost never turn down a request to meet from someone who wanted to ask me for help, advice, introductions, etc, but as soon as someone says they have ideas for me I get pretty suspicious. Nine times out of ten that guy is trying to sell you something. Of course,…

Agree... flattery is a reasonable way to a person's heart, particularly when it's justified by the person's success and your own low station.

really? I mean I suppose it depends on the person. Personally, I find being on the receiving end of obvious flattery to be distinctly uncomfortable, and I'm beginning to get a fair amount of that myself. Personally, (and I think this might be true of most people who are primarily technical) if a less experienced person wants my help, the best way to get it is to ask an interesting question in a way that shows you have made experience-appropriate progress solving the problem yourself. (That, or offer to work for me for cheap.)

Re: Flip the stick

#45

Post by [deleted] »

tome wrote: post #28
fforw wrote: post #27

Don't like world hunger? Starve people yourself! Don't like murder? Start killing people!

That's not the point. The point is if you don't like what someone else (not something else) is doing to you, become one of them yourself.

[deleted]

Re: Flip the stick

#46

Post by evansolomon »

lsc wrote: post #44
andrewljohnson wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree... flattery is a reasonable way to a person's heart, particularly when it's justified by the person's success and your own low station.

really? I mean I suppose it depends on the person. Personally, I find being on the receiving end of obvious flattery to be distinctly uncomfortable, and I'm beginning to get a fair amount of that myself. Personally, (and I think this might be true of most people who are primarily technical) if a less experienced person wants my help, the best way to get it is to ask an interesting question in a way that shows you hav…

I am admittedly not primarily technical, but I don't see that as relevant here. If someone actually has a legitimate way to add value to the person they're asking for help from, then that's great. Often that's not going to be the case though, and trying to fake that is (for me) a recipe for disaster.

To go back to the example of offering an idea to help with whatever, that's really just going to be a waste of time for most people. I'd much prefer the person simply say they want x/y/z and would like to meet or talk. Call it obvious flattery, it's also honest and efficient.

Re: Flip the stick

#47

Post by lionhearted »

pw0ncakes wrote: post #40

Good story, absolutely horrible generalization. "Shitty sticks" are usually a result of disadvantageous power dynamics, often set in place by the mistakes of previous generations, and therefore not so easily flippable, given the massive number of people who benefit from keeping them in position. Take, for example, the relationship between VCs and entrepreneurs. VCs make entrepreneurs pay legal expenses, often ask for…

> That's, without debate, a shitty stick. The simplistic solution, "become a VC", doesn't make any sense. 1. Most entrepreneurs don't want to be VCs, and 2. most of them can't join that club.

Well, the examples Derek gave were of starting a bank or becoming a distributor, but that's not the only way to flip the stick. When you've got a rough idea, an unproven business plan, and some smart but unproven people you're going to get bad terms, because the vast majority of rough ideas, unproven business plans, and smart but unproven people's companies flame out.

You could flip that around by working up any of those - turn your rough idea into a concrete, functional product. Prove the business plan (easiest way is revenues). And then after you've had some successes under your belt, you get money at great terms in the future.

The person with less leverage always gets the shit end of the stick. There's usually a lot more smart-but-unproven people with hazy unproven ideas that want financing than there is venture money to go around. Hence, bad terms. But there's also nowhere near enough companies raising money on a solid, proven growth trajectory being run by credible people. If you get that going on, you can raise crazy amounts of money on good terms.

"Flip the stick" means you don't have to accept the position of lower leverage and the bad terms that come with it, the shit end of the stick. There's more ways to accomplish that than just "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em".

Re: Flip the stick

#48

Post by lsc »

evansolomon wrote: post #46
lsc wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

really? I mean I suppose it depends on the person. Personally, I find being on the receiving end of obvious flattery to be distinctly uncomfortable, and I'm beginning to get a fair amount of that myself. Personally, (and I think this might be true of most people who are primarily technical) if a less experienced person wants my help, the best way to get it is to ask an interesting question in a way that shows you hav…

I am admittedly not primarily technical, but I don't see that as relevant here. If someone actually has a legitimate way to add value to the person they're asking for help from, then that's great. Often that's not going to be the case though, and trying to fake that is (for me) a recipe for disaster. To go back to the example of offering an idea to help with whatever, that's really just going to be a waste of time fo…

"if a less experienced person wants my help, the best way to get it is to ask an interesting question in a way that shows you have made experience-appropriate progress solving the problem yourself. "

So, I'm not trying to say a less experienced person should come up with something to try to help the more experienced person; I'm saying that if a less experienced person wants me to help them, they should show that they are likely to get it done with minimal hand holding from me. Helping other people is fun, but I'm only going to do it if it's not that much work for me and it's only satisfying if they pull through and get the thing done.

In a way I may be agreeing with your initial post; it's just that you don't flatter technical people by complementing them; that just makes us feel weird. you flatter technical people by asking their opinion/knowledge, or letting them help you in ways that are easy for them. (the line between flattery and asking for free help is a thin one. A lot of that depends on the more experienced person's assessment of the less experienced person's potential and ability. it also has to do with the level of responsibility expected of the more experienced person; if you expect me to keep track, organize, or follow through on something, that's /work/ and I expect to get paid. If you want to ask my opinion on how to solve an interesting question, that's fun, and it's somewhat flattering that you think my yammerings are useful. a paper could be written on when it is good to ask for free help, and when it is bad to do so. )

Re: Flip the stick

#49

Post by mquander »

lsc wrote: post #43
mquander wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

K5 was already toast by the time that came in.

You have a point. But the $5 for new accounts only helps if moderators ban undesirable accounts. The $5 is a way to give the banhammer a bit more meaning. are you prepared to ban people for commenting like the above? Personally, I don't think that harsh criticism is necessarily a bad thing. (I mean, the aforementioned comment was perhaps written without reading the article, I mean it doesn't make much sense in the co…

I think it's a bad thing given two things:

- You're really trying to inspire some kind of substantiative, rational discussion and not just verbal sparring. K5 sort of was and sort of wasn't. It was both a discussion-place and a playground. HN is supposed to be much more a discussion-place.

- The harsh criticism doesn't give the poster any means to fight back. "Motivational drivel" isn't a criticism that someone can argue against, nor is "This kind of comment makes me wish we had a moratorium on signups or a $5 fee." So that criticism is useless for promoting discussion, or even for promoting any kind of further on-topic thought at all. It routes the conversation toward more flames.

I strongly prefer total Mad Max flamewar arguments, but it tends to drive away a lot of people who have a (well-meaning) tendency to try to take any criticism, and deal with any critics. I mean, you see threads on here complaining that people downvote things without explanation! Obviously the posters of those threads would be gone in an instant if trolls started outright insulting them all over the place.

Re: Flip the stick

#50

Post by derwiki »

shawndrost wrote: post #3

If you're young and you're depressed by the phrase "It's all about who you know", I really encourage you follow this quick, life-changing script: email two or three people in your town that can help you, and offer to buy them lunch so you can pick their brain. It's very easy to meet people, and you don't have to be fake, politic, or even very outgoing.

This is also an exercise in Four Hour Workweek. It's also how I met Craig of Craiglist -- it was literally "Hey, you spoke at my commencement and I'm a programmer in the Bay Area. Want to get coffee?" Now if someone has advice on how to not become starstruck when they actually meet these big shots, I'm all ears :)
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