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Truth in stereotypes

aeon.co

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Re: Truth in stereotypes

#21

Post by iopq »

adrianN wrote: post #5

The accuracy or inaccuracy of stereotypes reminds me of the regulations and ethical debates regarding the use of machine learning for example for creditworthiness. The algorithms often turn out to become "racist", because from the data they have, race is a good predictor. I'm still somewhat ambivalent on that, because I'm not convinced that statistics can be racist. But people pointed out to me that the way these sta…

Why do you think black people aren't hired at well paying jobs? Isn't racism also in a way based on stereotypes that are often true? A business owner has no legal obligation to interview every applicant.

Re: Truth in stereotypes

#22

Post by 0134340 »

sevenless wrote: post #10
pif wrote: post #9

Stereotypes do surely contain a grain of truth, but it's very important not to use any of them when judging individual people.

Why? Accurate stereotypes are simply group-level information about people. You could call a stereotype a weakly informative prior.

Not all stereotypes are true. People have stereotyped others in the past and some of it had to do with other people being accused of being a witch or possessed if they have a medical condition as epilepsy. In Africa, some albinos may also be accused of witchcraft and killed or their body parts taken. As far as people being accused of the supernatural as I mentioned or as being vampires, there's plenty of wrong stereotypes that come to mind. I'm guilty of stereotyping but I also know that man fears what it doesn't know. Sometimes groups make up reasons to fear others because they don't know much about the others and their potential threat levels. Stereotypes are useful for protecting the self and group sometimes but in a public circle (internet) where you make known your stereotype around those that you do stereotype, if it's not true, it's just a given that it'll cause issues. No one cares if you stereotype and keep it to you or your inner circle but it's obvious it'll cause issues in large public forums.

Re: Truth in stereotypes

#23

Post by jccalhoun »

I find it very strange that the author spends a couple paragraphs talking about definitions and yet does not offer a definition of "stereotype" because I consider a lot of his stereotypes to actually be generalizations.

Of course this raises the question of the difference between stereotypes and generalizations. I did some searching but didn't find anything I would call authoritative and I don't think I could define them myself in any meaningful terms.

Re: Truth in stereotypes

#24

Post by lomnakkus »

sevenless wrote: post #10
pif wrote: post #9

Stereotypes do surely contain a grain of truth, but it's very important not to use any of them when judging individual people.

Why? Accurate stereotypes are simply group-level information about people. You could call a stereotype a weakly informative prior.

There's usually much more variation between individuals within a group (say, all white people) than between groups (say, white vs. asian people), nevermind individuals from different groups. Judging individuals based on aggregate statistics about their group would be foolish in the extreme. (Not to mention morally dubious, at best.)

Or course it depends on the size of the group, and you can construct artificial groupings to make the above false, but let's just say that all the 'standard' groups are covered: ethnicity, skin colour, gender, sexuality, etc. etc.

Re: Truth in stereotypes

#25

Post by iopq »

pif wrote: post #9

Stereotypes do surely contain a grain of truth, but it's very important not to use any of them when judging individual people.

You may only have moments to get away from a dangerous situation. You don't have time to consider whether running away from a large black man is racist. It may, in fact, save your life some of the time at the cost of being mildly offensive.

Re: Truth in stereotypes

#26

Post by iopq »

lomnakkus wrote: post #24
sevenless wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? Accurate stereotypes are simply group-level information about people. You could call a stereotype a weakly informative prior.

There's usually much more variation between individuals within a group (say, all white people) than between groups (say, white vs. asian people), nevermind individuals from different groups. Judging individuals based on aggregate statistics about their group would be foolish in the extreme. (Not to mention morally dubious, at best.) Or course it depends on the size of the group, and you can construct artificial group…

Let's break it down by gender, a woman is an order of magnitude less likely to mug you than a man. The difference between groups (female or male) is MUCH larger than the difference in the groups (white male vs. black male or white female vs. black female)

Re: Truth in stereotypes

#27

Post by Paul_S »

whack wrote: post #19

Considering the great amount of statistical research the author has done, it's surprising that he's drawn some dreadful conclusions. He seems to be saying that in the face of incomplete/ambiguous information, people should form judgements on other people on the basis of racial/gender/physical stereotypes. The problem with stereotypes isn't that they have no basis in reality. The problem with stereotypes is that they…

You just described the reality I live in. Where do you live? I want to move there.

Re: Truth in stereotypes

#28

Post by adrianN »

iopq wrote: post #21
adrianN wrote: post #5

The accuracy or inaccuracy of stereotypes reminds me of the regulations and ethical debates regarding the use of machine learning for example for creditworthiness. The algorithms often turn out to become "racist", because from the data they have, race is a good predictor. I'm still somewhat ambivalent on that, because I'm not convinced that statistics can be racist. But people pointed out to me that the way these sta…

Why do you think black people aren't hired at well paying jobs? Isn't racism also in a way based on stereotypes that are often true? A business owner has no legal obligation to interview every applicant.

That was just an example, I don't really know much about black people in the US.

Re: Truth in stereotypes

#29

Post by jomamaxx »

adrianN wrote: post #5

The accuracy or inaccuracy of stereotypes reminds me of the regulations and ethical debates regarding the use of machine learning for example for creditworthiness. The algorithms often turn out to become "racist", because from the data they have, race is a good predictor. I'm still somewhat ambivalent on that, because I'm not convinced that statistics can be racist. But people pointed out to me that the way these sta…

The fact that African Americans, on average, might be significantly less likely to be creditworthy - is not racist per-sey, it's just a fact.

But denying someone credit on the basis of their race is probably racist.

Why? Because having 'black skin' does not make you less credit worthy. It's a correlating factor.

In fact - the 'dangers of stereotypes' are exactly that: making prejudiced decisions based on race etc..

Creditworthiness should be established on the basis of your job, job type, income, education, history of making payments etc..

There's no way on earth it's moral or fair to deny credit because someone is black - in the same way it's ruthlessly unfair to convict someone of a crime because they are black and 'theoretically more likely to have committed crime'.

I'd argue that this is the basis for the systematic racism that exists in the system, and that we have to get over.

And I'm not a pro-PC guy - by far. I'm not even very cool with affirmative action. But we need to treat people as individuals, not stereotypes.

Re: Truth in stereotypes

#30

Post by jasode »

whack wrote: post #19

Considering the great amount of statistical research the author has done, it's surprising that he's drawn some dreadful conclusions. He seems to be saying that in the face of incomplete/ambiguous information, people should form judgements on other people on the basis of racial/gender/physical stereotypes. The problem with stereotypes isn't that they have no basis in reality. The problem with stereotypes is that they…

>He seems to be saying that in the face of incomplete/ambiguous information, people should form judgements on other people on the basis of racial/gender/physical stereotypes.

It looks like "He seems...people should..." is overlaying a prescription that Lee Jussim didn't write anywhere in the essay.

Instead, he explicitly wrote the opposite: "Nothing in this essay should dissuade anyone from continuing efforts to combat discrimination."

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