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In Texas, a man who didn’t kill anybody is about to be executed for murder

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Re: In Texas, a man who didn’t kill anybody is about to be executed for murder

#31

Post by dec0dedab0de »

bArray wrote: post #28

I think if he's found not guilty he deserves some kind of compensation. You can't just keep somebody in limbo like that, knowing they will "die soon" for years. It is mental torture. What he's going through now is arguably worse than being found guilty. You can't justify that. They're punishing him and his family repeatedly. I think this is a perfect example of the US completely getting it wrong. If states can't get…

I think this is a perfect example of the US completely getting it wrong. If states can't get it right, I think the ability to arbitrarily punish serious crimes should be dissolved to upper government. Why it makes a difference what state you're in is beyond me. I thought it was something they were phasing out of.

Because if it were all handled at a higher level, there is a very good chance these types of policies would be in place for more people. Also, it would take more effort to change them. Concentration of power is not good, didn't you see star wars?

Re: In Texas, a man who didn’t kill anybody is about to be executed for murder

#32

Post by [deleted] »

allendoerfer wrote: post #24

I am neither Texan nor American, so this is an outsiders perspective: What I do not get is how the EU can just blatantly ignore this. When one of our politicians travels to an Arab country or to China and does not address the human rights situation clear enough, he or she will be bashed. When Turkey starts talking about reintroducing capital punishment the instant reactions are that this will end the negotiations abo…

[deleted]

Re: In Texas, a man who didn’t kill anybody is about to be executed for murder

#33

Post by techsupporter »

wtbob wrote: post #15
techsupporter wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. "Beyond all reasonable doubt" is fine for throwing someone in jail and putting the key all but permanently out of reach. But I think that, as a society, we must retain the ability to say "oh shit we fucked up very much here is the door we are very sorry please take this huge sack of cash along with our sincere apologies" if or when we discover that our legal system made a massive error. In this day and age, were…

> "Beyond all reasonable doubt" is fine for throwing someone in jail and putting the key all but permanently out of reach. But I think that, as a society, we must retain the ability to say "oh shit we fucked up very much here is the door we are very sorry please take this huge sack of cash along with our sincere apologies" if or when we discover that our legal system made a massive error. You'll still never return lo…

> You'll still never return lost years and decades of someone's life any more than you could return life to a dead man. You can't restore the fractured relationships, undo the pain of imprisonment.

No, but you also can't make a completely perfect criminal justice system. It is infinitely more possible to free a person from prison, pay that person many millions of dollars (or do other things to make the remainder of that person's life very easy), and otherwise let that person go back to having some kind of life...than it is to raise the dead.

> Honestly, I think a quick death (not the insane decades-of-imprisonment-followed-by-ritualistic-execution we have now) is far more humane than life in prison.

Perhaps it is for the actually-guilty. But for the actually-innocent, I do not agree because they will always have the hope and possibility of someday being freed again.

Re: In Texas, a man who didn’t kill anybody is about to be executed for murder

#34

Post by alex_young »

jdietrich wrote: post #27
bhickey wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would you like techsupporter to do? Drive down to the prisons and personally tear down the bars? "So long as Texas keeps executing people, I don't see what difference it makes how many [Americans] are in favor of it."

Honest question: how many people are actively protesting against the death penalty in Texas? A cursory search shows one annual march and protests on the day of executions, with turnouts in the low tens. From the outside looking in, it seems that most Texans who oppose the death penalty are either indifferent or resigned to the issue. I'd love to be proven wrong, but I find very little evidence of a credible abolition…

Why does the popularity of a form of punishment matter so much?

If the death penalty is unjust, inhumane, and unequally applied, isn't it also then both crual and unusual?

The standard we apply in our justice system is not one of popular opinion.

Re: In Texas, a man who didn’t kill anybody is about to be executed for murder

#35

Post by vacri »

djrogers wrote: post #6
joesmo wrote: post #2

It seems to me that such laws punish people for associating with certain individuals who go on to commit crimes, requiring everyone to essentially be psychic or predict others' actions correctly 100% of the time to stay on the right side of the law. Either that or avoid associating with anyone. It's insane--and certainly unjust--that a law that makes such impossible and ridiculous demands of people is considered just…

Setting aside the death penalty aspect, this case is not about association - it's about explicit participation in a felony that resulted in the death of an innocent victim. Doesn't require a psychic to determine that committing a robbery with someone whom you know to own and carry a firearm could result in a death.

> with someone whom you know to own and carry a firearm could result in a death

In modern Texas with its 'carry' laws, this could be anyone.

Besides, given the gun lobby rhetoric, 'guns don't kill people', so a death is 'just as likely' with a knife or any other tool to hand - even stuff already in the shop. After all, if someone is intent on killing you, 'they're going to do it whether or not they have a gun'.

Re: In Texas, a man who didn’t kill anybody is about to be executed for murder

#36

Post by techsupporter »

morbotron2000 wrote: post #25
techsupporter wrote: post #9

I'm a native Texan, which I point out solely to rebut the assertion that all--or even many--Texans are in favor of the death penalty, and I very much oppose the death penalty for reasons exactly such as this. Maybe this man committed a crime; it sure seems like he did. But maybe he didn't. Or maybe he didn't in the way that the state, or the psychiatrist, or the eyewitnesses claim he did. That's the problem with the…

1) According to the best available evidence, a sizable majority of Texans favor the death penalty. 2) If you strongly oppose the death penalty, can you provide examples of what you've done to reduce it? You've already noted that you chose to live in a way that provides financial support for the death penalty.. what are you doing to offset that? What organizations do you donate to, or volunteer with? What have you don…

As to your first point, I said "many," not most, dislike the death penalty. Even at its most pessimistic, 19% strongly opposed, that's 4 million voters who are opposed. I think that qualifies as many, though perhaps it is a distinction without a difference for you. I might should not have said it.

On your second, I don't know how my personal actions are relevant here, but I will recite them for you because I am on a rebutting-of-presumptions mode today:

- You said I "chose to live in a way" that supports the death penalty. I should point out that though I am native to Texas, I no longer live in Texas. I even reincorporated my small consulting business in another state, away from Texas.

- I have provided volunteer support to the Innocence Project of Texas (I decline to specify when or what kind because I am being anonymous here).

- When I lived in State Senator Jane Nelson's district, I know that I had a reputation among her staff for writing several anti-death penalty letters and being one of the most vociferous. I know this because I became friends with a former staffer of hers and that person told me.

- I have participated in and volunteered for the political campaigns of candidates who are endorsed by the Texas Moratorium Network, a group opposed to the death penalty.

Is that sufficient? Have you packed your bags to move to Texas and vote against proponents of the death penalty yet? My vote is missing, perhaps you can take up the slack for me.

Re: In Texas, a man who didn’t kill anybody is about to be executed for murder

#37

Post by honkhonkpants »

refurb wrote: post #29
gozur88 wrote: post #3

>Legal experts say his case is rare, even in Texas, the execution capital of America — and a state that allows capital punishment for people who did not kill anyone or did not intend to kill. Forty six US states have Felony Murder statutes. I don't think this is all that rare for states with capital punishment. According to the wiki "...the death penalty may be imposed if the defendant is a major participant in the u…

Correct! I'm not sure why Texas is being singled out here. California has this statue as well. If you participate in the commission of a felony crime and someone dies, then you are guilty of felony murder. They have something similar in the EU (e.g. Germany has "with deadly outcomes") where you receive an extended sentence even if you never intended for that person to die.

California has executed 13 people in 40 years, and none in the last ten. Texas has executed 500 people in the same time.

Re: In Texas, a man who didn’t kill anybody is about to be executed for murder

#38

Post by gozur88 »

honkhonkpants wrote: post #37
refurb wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correct! I'm not sure why Texas is being singled out here. California has this statue as well. If you participate in the commission of a felony crime and someone dies, then you are guilty of felony murder. They have something similar in the EU (e.g. Germany has "with deadly outcomes") where you receive an extended sentence even if you never intended for that person to die.

California has executed 13 people in 40 years, and none in the last ten. Texas has executed 500 people in the same time.

On the other hand, there are more than 750 people on death row in California. It's not that we don't sentence them to death; it's just that we've created a system where we can't carry out the execution before they die of natural causes.

Re: In Texas, a man who didn’t kill anybody is about to be executed for murder

#40

Post by nikatwork »

morbotron2000 wrote: post #25
techsupporter wrote: post #9

I'm a native Texan, which I point out solely to rebut the assertion that all--or even many--Texans are in favor of the death penalty, and I very much oppose the death penalty for reasons exactly such as this. Maybe this man committed a crime; it sure seems like he did. But maybe he didn't. Or maybe he didn't in the way that the state, or the psychiatrist, or the eyewitnesses claim he did. That's the problem with the…

1) According to the best available evidence, a sizable majority of Texans favor the death penalty. 2) If you strongly oppose the death penalty, can you provide examples of what you've done to reduce it? You've already noted that you chose to live in a way that provides financial support for the death penalty.. what are you doing to offset that? What organizations do you donate to, or volunteer with? What have you don…

> you are, on net, supporting it.

I haven't donated to any anti Boko Haram orgs. Does that mean I support murdering children?

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