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TPP Is Still Very Much Alive

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Re: TPP Is Still Very Much Alive

#21
post #9
post #2

There's a lot of abstract "this deal is bad!" stuff, but what, specific, are the issues with TPP? What reason does the president have for wanting to pass it? I generally find him to be a reasonable person, so I don't think he's just being "evil" or whatever.

There's a lot of controversy regarding the specific contents of the TPP, but for me personally, I am against the cloud of secrecy that it (along with most trade agreements) was developed under. It took WikiLeaks to even let the public know of its existence. And after that they refused to let members of congress (our elected officials) from even reviewing the document except for selected sections, under the watchful e…

Just to preface, I haven't decided myself on whether TPP is 'good' or 'bad'. Still in the researching phase. And I am very much in the same boat as the original comment wondering why there's such a seemingly strong consensus that it's not just bad from an economic sense, but evil from ethical/environmental/freedom reasons as well. Now all of these maybe true, but my alarm bells always go off when people scream so much hyperbole denouncing a certain thing.

However I have heard this specific argument that it was done in secret with no accountability, which is why it's evil and must be stopped. But, I just don't see much validity in this argument.

1. Initial negotiations happened in private, as I would assume any/all types of treaties, agreements, partnerships of this type would be. Imagine trying to conduct any negotiation out in public, it would devolve into rumor, hearsay, misinformation and be counter productive. For the HN crowd, the best analogy might be trying to conduct a sale of your company, or negotiating some contract with an important ($$) client. Always in secret, until all parties are satisfied and agreed upon.

2. Now, this being a democracy and a government partnership, it needs to be voted upon before becoming law even after all sides have agreed on the contents of the document. And so the full document has been made available here[1]. This allows the entire congress, as well as concerned citizens, to understand the details. An argument can be made that there wasn't sufficient time provided for this review process, but nevertheless, that's what your lawmakers are elected for, to review these types of things, or vote no/yes in response.

[1]: http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-full-text-of-the-trans-paci...

Re: TPP Is Still Very Much Alive

#22
post #11
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My understanding of it is that standardizing trade law and eliminating a wide range of nationalistic trade policies allows for greater operational efficiency, lower average cost of goods, etc. as systems closer to free markets tend to. The problems are 1. Massive disparities in wealth put the less-skilled in wealthy countries at greater risk of being made irrelevant/pushed towards global market rate (which is below m…

Thanks for the links (I won't likely read the EFF's take, as I am staunchly against the way the EFF writes its articles), but this feels like a rabbit hole. Cory Doctorow links to an article that links to an article that eventually gets to a World Bank report, claiming that 772k jobs will be lost "Because of the TPP" and that the GDP of developed nations will decrease by .52% for the US and .12% for Japan. The Tufts…

Yeh it's all so complicated... The loss of sovereignty stuff seems sort of like fear-mongering nonsense, though. In the case you cite, just last month Philip Morris lost against Uruguay and was ordered to pay $7 million dollars plus cover Uruguay's legal fees [1]. In a similar case in Australia last December concerning cigarrete packaging, Philip Morris lost. [2]

[1] http://www.reuters.com/article/us-pmi-uruguay-lawsuit-idUSKC...

[2] https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2015/dec/18/austr...

Re: TPP Is Still Very Much Alive

#23
post #18
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just don't buy this argument, that a trade deal can't be negotiated in secret. The public's control over its government in the US is exclusively through its election system, and the idea that the public "has a right to debate the deal" is, to me, utter nonsense. You elect officials who you trust to appoint other officials who will negotiate with the US's best interest in mind. If the deal goes through, you elect di…

> "The people" never have a say in any legislation, not directly, I "think" that the existence of ballot initiatives (and especially direct initiatives) directly contradicts this. For a real life example of ballot initiatives in action: http://singlepayerhealthcarenow.com/2015/12/27/single-payer-...

You mean ballot initiatives like prop 8?

Re: TPP Is Still Very Much Alive

#24
post #15
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just don't buy this argument, that a trade deal can't be negotiated in secret. The public's control over its government in the US is exclusively through its election system, and the idea that the public "has a right to debate the deal" is, to me, utter nonsense. You elect officials who you trust to appoint other officials who will negotiate with the US's best interest in mind. If the deal goes through, you elect di…

You just gave the cookie cutter answer without reading the comment you replied to. Some members of Congress were denied access to the agreement during the negotiations. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-Pacific_Partnership#Secr...

I still don't see a problem with barring members of congress from the TPP negotiations. It makes it harder for the Obama administration to convince them to pass TPP, but that's up to White House to decide if that's the most prudent way to negotiate, and apparently they thought so.

The "democratic" part of the TPP comes when the US elected the congress who will or won't pass the resolution, and when the US elected Obama into office to negotiate on our behalf.

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