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Sweden leads the race to become cashless society

theguardian.com

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Re: Sweden leads the race to become cashless society

#41

Post by bogomipz »

sheraz wrote: post #24

House of cards. Cashless societies mean: the unbanked are further isolated and prevented from engaging in commerce. Older generations are left behind. Just trying to switch bankid login from old phone to new phone is a PITA, and I'm tech savvy. Lack of anonymous transactions means that my banks know about my vices such as gambling, porn, or strippers. Cascading failures - payment network crashes means no one can auth…

This is a good point that cashless means having a smart phone and a bank account which marginalizes the already marginalized such as the homeless. I realize that Sweden doesn't have that problem but there are many other places that do.

Also anyone that's lived through a hurricane or a blackout tell you cash is king. Having a few days worth stashed is a good addition to any preparedness kit.

Re: Sweden leads the race to become cashless society

#42

Post by ams6110 »

bjornsing wrote: post #2

The busses have refused cash for years now, mostly for security reasons. But the other day one of my favorite cafés also declined the kingly payment method. A good sign indeed. :) A perhaps even better one is that one of the lunch places I go to no-longer requires my pin code when I pay by card. :D Progress! :)

TBH buses in most places haven't accepted cash on board in quite some time. You have to buy tokens or a bus pass and use those. Even tokens I think are not much used any more because in bulk they are heavy and expensive to transport and account for.

Re: Sweden leads the race to become cashless society

#43

Post by towb »

kristofferR wrote: post #29
StavrosK wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, in a cashless society, everything is 3% more expensive.

That's not really true. The average fee in Sweden is closer to 1% than 3%, and handling cash is really expensive. Realistically a cashless society should save money.

Maybe so. But then one have to ask whose money we are saving by getting rid of the cash.

Re: Sweden leads the race to become cashless society

#45

Post by miend »

bjornsing wrote: post #2

The busses have refused cash for years now, mostly for security reasons. But the other day one of my favorite cafés also declined the kingly payment method. A good sign indeed. :) A perhaps even better one is that one of the lunch places I go to no-longer requires my pin code when I pay by card. :D Progress! :)

It sounds downright Orwellian. The government, its banks, payment processors all having the ability to instantly lock you out of the economy and watch your every transaction, leaving you totally out of options should you get on their bad side?

That just sounds like another building block in the surveillance Panopticon, psychological assurance that you'll never become dissentious because your continued existence in the economy essentially depends upon the state's grace. It changes the way people act, and even the way they think. It's the disturbing new reality that Snowden, Greenwald, et al. have sought to do something about, and here Swedes seem to be embracing it openly.

It sure sounds like this service could offer some great conveniences to daily living, but is it worth such a heavy price? The erosion of the will to dissent, and the power of the individual over their own lives? Are these an acceptable trade for the comfort of never having to see a coin again?

Re: Sweden leads the race to become cashless society

#46

Post by bogomipz »

ginko wrote: post #17
bjornsing wrote: post #2

The busses have refused cash for years now, mostly for security reasons. But the other day one of my favorite cafés also declined the kingly payment method. A good sign indeed. :) A perhaps even better one is that one of the lunch places I go to no-longer requires my pin code when I pay by card. :D Progress! :)

This sounds horrifying.

How long before health insurance companies are able to track your diet or habits and adjust your premiums accordingly. I'm picturing a text message from the insurance company that tells me I've gone over my donut allowance for the month.

Re: Sweden leads the race to become cashless society

#47

Post by driverdan »

stenl wrote: post #7

I live in Stockholm and haven't used cash for several years. I have no cash on me ever, no coins, nothing. It's liberating. I get very annoyed when travelling and I rediscover the cash-based society and the need to always predict how much cash to carry.

I find the opposite is true, that cash is liberating.

1. I always know how much cash in in my pocket. I typically carry $30-50 which is plenty for everyday transactions.

2. It's easy to budget with cash. You can never spend more than what you have.

3. I don't have to worry about paying off card balances.

4. The chances of getting a credit / debit card stolen are a lot higher than having my cash stolen, eliminating the hassle of replacing cards.

5. I support my community by eliminating the overhead of accepting cards.

6. I can easily pay individuals instantly without having to worry about what service to use or delays in transferring from my bank to theirs.

7. I maintain my privacy.

I'm not even considering the downsides of using a phone for payments (lost / stolen / broken / dead battery / borked update / bad UIs).

All that said I use a mix of cash and cards. Cards do have a lot of consumer advantages (cash back, disputing transactions, etc). Don't pretend that they're far superior to cash though. Both have their advantages and disadvantages. The loss of privacy is a HUGE problem with electronic payments.

Re: Sweden leads the race to become cashless society

#48

Post by CuriousSkeptic »

The local public service news did a piece on this a while ago and the biggest problem they could envisage was the usability problems. Which is kind of sad, I'm sure most usability issues can be solved one way or the other.

Heres one thing that really should have more focus, remember when visa and mastercard decided to kill allofmp3? http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/10/19/allofmp3_attacks_vis...

Re: Sweden leads the race to become cashless society

#49

Post by a-saleh »

sheraz wrote: post #24

House of cards. Cashless societies mean: the unbanked are further isolated and prevented from engaging in commerce. Older generations are left behind. Just trying to switch bankid login from old phone to new phone is a PITA, and I'm tech savvy. Lack of anonymous transactions means that my banks know about my vices such as gambling, porn, or strippers. Cascading failures - payment network crashes means no one can auth…

A.f.a.i.k. even if everything fails, you can still use the embossing on your card and your non-electronic signature.

I have used in car-rental recently. Not sure if my grocery store would accept this sort of payment though :-/

Re: Sweden leads the race to become cashless society

#50

Post by sheraz »

bogomipz wrote: post #41
sheraz wrote: post #24

House of cards. Cashless societies mean: the unbanked are further isolated and prevented from engaging in commerce. Older generations are left behind. Just trying to switch bankid login from old phone to new phone is a PITA, and I'm tech savvy. Lack of anonymous transactions means that my banks know about my vices such as gambling, porn, or strippers. Cascading failures - payment network crashes means no one can auth…

This is a good point that cashless means having a smart phone and a bank account which marginalizes the already marginalized such as the homeless. I realize that Sweden doesn't have that problem but there are many other places that do. Also anyone that's lived through a hurricane or a blackout tell you cash is king. Having a few days worth stashed is a good addition to any preparedness kit.

In Sweden there are the Roma/gypsy population who have smartphones but certainly don't have Swedish bank accounts. This is also true for many expats. Including other Scandinavian nationals.

Americans have an especially tough time finding a bank to open an account due to FBAR and FACTA, treaties signed to combat money laundering and such.

The result is that many bank branches choose to not offer accounts due to the added paperwork.

No bank account. No bankid. Often fewer services available to you.

Note: this is a common criticism for foreign nationals starting up a life in Sweden.

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