Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Sweden leads the race to become cashless society

theguardian.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

31–40 of 74 posts

Re: Sweden leads the race to become cashless society

#31

Post by RivieraKid »

_0w8t wrote: post #15

In Norway I know only a single shop that still does not accept cards, perhaps on principle. Even farmers selling fruits and vegetables often have a card reader. However many shops accept only cards from Norway that are connected to the BankAccept system which are significantly cheaper for a shop to accept than credit cards. Also as a sign of times street musicians sometimes write their phone number for Vipps, a local…

Wow, that's interesting, I'm a big fan of card payments because tap to pay is super convenient (most places in Prague have card readers) but what annoys me is the Visa / MasterCard duopoly. Because this means that a fraction of every payment goes to an American company - it's not a competetive market so they have a sizeable profit margin. It's cool that you have a local alternative, I wish we had that too or at least more than 2 competitors to push profits down, so that card payments don't leak money out of the economy.

Re: Sweden leads the race to become cashless society

#32

Post by colejohnson66 »

superkuh wrote: post #21
EliRivers wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No cash removes individual volition? Will everyone get a list each month of what to buy?

Try donating to wikileaks with a credit card. Try buying porn with paypal. Your strawman of sudden total control is silly. This frog will be boiled slowly.

Of course, there is one way to be anonymous in a cashless society: purchase prepaid debit cards. One would think prepaid debit cards can be linked to the purchase, but no (at least where's I work). We had a problem a few months ago where a guy bought over $5000 with a fradulant credit card. However, because the prepaids can't be linked to the purchase, the cards can't be disabled; they are treated the same as cash.

Now, if you want to be paranoid, what you could do is purchase bitcoin, toss them through a tumbler, then purchase a prepaid debit card to use.

A lot of extra work compared to just using cash, but if societies want to go cashless, there are ways to be anonymous. Whether it should be that hard is up for debate.

Re: Sweden leads the race to become cashless society

#33

Post by lukeschlather »

kristofferR wrote: post #29
StavrosK wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, in a cashless society, everything is 3% more expensive.

That's not really true. The average fee in Sweden is closer to 1% than 3%, and handling cash is really expensive. Realistically a cashless society should save money.

Margins matter. Somebody who makes $100k maybe spends $60k/year and doesn't care that they pay $600 for transaction fees.

Somebody who makes $30k spends $28k/year and $280 in transaction fees has a huge effect on net savings.

Re: Sweden leads the race to become cashless society

#34

Post by _0w8t »

RivieraKid wrote: post #31
_0w8t wrote: post #15

In Norway I know only a single shop that still does not accept cards, perhaps on principle. Even farmers selling fruits and vegetables often have a card reader. However many shops accept only cards from Norway that are connected to the BankAccept system which are significantly cheaper for a shop to accept than credit cards. Also as a sign of times street musicians sometimes write their phone number for Vipps, a local…

Wow, that's interesting, I'm a big fan of card payments because tap to pay is super convenient (most places in Prague have card readers) but what annoys me is the Visa / MasterCard duopoly. Because this means that a fraction of every payment goes to an American company - it's not a competetive market so they have a sizeable profit margin. It's cool that you have a local alternative, I wish we had that too or at least…

There is still a problem as shops do not pass savings from using a local payment system to the customer. As some banks started to offer cash-back cards that return up to 1% of payments back, as a customer I have more insensitive to use cache-back credit card than a local one.

Re: Sweden leads the race to become cashless society

#35

Post by Numberwang »

stenl wrote: post #7

I live in Stockholm and haven't used cash for several years. I have no cash on me ever, no coins, nothing. It's liberating. I get very annoyed when travelling and I rediscover the cash-based society and the need to always predict how much cash to carry.

Agreed,

I moved from Stockholm to London a few years ago and in this regard in particular it felt like stepping back in time.

I now end up putting all the smaller coins in the bin just to get rid of them.

Re: Sweden leads the race to become cashless society

#36

Post by AgentME »

colejohnson66 wrote: post #32
superkuh wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Try donating to wikileaks with a credit card. Try buying porn with paypal. Your strawman of sudden total control is silly. This frog will be boiled slowly.

Of course, there is one way to be anonymous in a cashless society: purchase prepaid debit cards. One would think prepaid debit cards can be linked to the purchase, but no (at least where's I work). We had a problem a few months ago where a guy bought over $5000 with a fradulant credit card. However, because the prepaids can't be linked to the purchase, the cards can't be disabled; they are treated the same as cash. N…

>A lot of extra work compared to just using cash, but if societies want to go cashless, there are ways to be anonymous. Whether it should be that hard is up for debate.

Making it inconvenient can be an issue enough.

The Chinese firewall isn't about making it impossible to go to western sites. It's about making it inconvenient, so that most people use Chinese alternatives.

Re: Sweden leads the race to become cashless society

#37

Post by sebcat »

stenl wrote: post #7

I live in Stockholm and haven't used cash for several years. I have no cash on me ever, no coins, nothing. It's liberating. I get very annoyed when travelling and I rediscover the cash-based society and the need to always predict how much cash to carry.

I stood in line at a grocery store recently where the POS terminal failed and they started letting through people who could pay in cash. When they announced that, a hipster-looking guy in front of me commented "who uses cash in 2016?" or similar, to which my silent answer was to pass him and pay for my groceries w/ cash.

Doesn't happen very often though.

Re: Sweden leads the race to become cashless society

#38

Post by colejohnson66 »

kristofferR wrote: post #29
StavrosK wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, in a cashless society, everything is 3% more expensive.

That's not really true. The average fee in Sweden is closer to 1% than 3%, and handling cash is really expensive. Realistically a cashless society should save money.

Well yes, it saves people time (and time is money), but it's a trade off and sometimes ends up costing more than it saves.

If your kid wants to buy something, normally you just give them cash and they can't spend anything more. If you give them your card, now they can spend as much as they want ($1000 on Clash of Clans for example). While there are solutions such as giving your kid their own card you transfer the money to, it's a lot more effort than just pulling out a $5, and I'm sure many parents would forgo that route and just hand the kid their card.

What do you do when you want to buy something anonymously? Normally, you'd just pay with cash. Want to donate to Wikileaks without anyone knowing? Use a money order. In a cashless society, you can't do it as simple as that. You need to purchase prepaid debit cards (which costs time). And if the prepaids can be linked with the purchaser, then you'd need to spend even more time buying bitcoins, tossing them in a tumbler, then buying prepaid debit cards. A lot of extra work compared to just using cash or money order.

So yes, a cashless saves time, but it also costs time in other areas. Has Sweden found a balance? Doubt it.

Re: Sweden leads the race to become cashless society

#39

Post by cft »

colejohnson66 wrote: post #32
superkuh wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Try donating to wikileaks with a credit card. Try buying porn with paypal. Your strawman of sudden total control is silly. This frog will be boiled slowly.

Of course, there is one way to be anonymous in a cashless society: purchase prepaid debit cards. One would think prepaid debit cards can be linked to the purchase, but no (at least where's I work). We had a problem a few months ago where a guy bought over $5000 with a fradulant credit card. However, because the prepaids can't be linked to the purchase, the cards can't be disabled; they are treated the same as cash. N…

Will you purchase those cards with cash in the cashless society?

Re: Sweden leads the race to become cashless society

#40

Post by colejohnson66 »

AgentME wrote: post #36
colejohnson66 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course, there is one way to be anonymous in a cashless society: purchase prepaid debit cards. One would think prepaid debit cards can be linked to the purchase, but no (at least where's I work). We had a problem a few months ago where a guy bought over $5000 with a fradulant credit card. However, because the prepaids can't be linked to the purchase, the cards can't be disabled; they are treated the same as cash. N…

>A lot of extra work compared to just using cash, but if societies want to go cashless, there are ways to be anonymous. Whether it should be that hard is up for debate. Making it inconvenient can be an issue enough. The Chinese firewall isn't about making it impossible to go to western sites. It's about making it inconvenient, so that most people use Chinese alternatives.

One other inconvenience I see is with the older generation who give money to their grandchildren.

> "Happy Birthday, Alice! Here's $100"

vs.

> "Happy Birthday, Alice! Here's a check for $100. Now, you can't use that right away. You need to take it to the bank and they'll turn it into a card you can use when shopping."

Also, when I was growing up, actually /seeing/ the money helped me appreciate it's value. I knew to be careful with spending because I could see how much I had (physically). My younger brother: "Can I get Overwatch? It's only $60!"

Post reply on HN