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The Ethereum Classic Declaration of Independence

ethereumclassic.github.io

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Re: The Ethereum Classic Declaration of Independence

#31

Post by RandomBK »

jfoutz wrote: post #20
geofft wrote: post #14

Well, okay. But this isn't an answer to the fundamental dilemma of the DAO hack: either Ethereum should have forked, admitting that smart contracts aren't really a good idea, or it shouldn't have forked, admitting that smart contracts aren't really a good idea. This manifesto just argues that the second option is right, but that doesn't change the conclusion. Specifically, I have seen a lot of buggy software. I don't…

> but I already have a financial system where humans make usually-reasonable judgments about fraud and can reverse transactions. It's not perfect, but I have a decent set of expectations about it, it works well enough, and it's very well-supported. Totally independent of Ethereum, this style of argument is kinda weak. We really should be trying to build something better, either by improving the existing system or bui…

>Totally independent of Ethereum, this style of argument is kinda weak. We really should be trying to build something better, either by improving the existing system or building a parallel system that will slowly replace what's there. Good enough is the enemy of great.

While I agree that this style of rethoric is often overused, GP does raise an important question. Now that Ethereum has forked, there is a great deal of uncertainty regarding the real benefits of the system, and about whether the benefit is worth the risk of switching.

The Ethereum project has always marketed the value of the system by emphasizing the predictable, deterministic, and impartial nature of the blockchain. Now that it has failed this first trial by fire, it is up to the project to present a new value proposition for why it is an improvement over the traditional legal system. We as the public must ask questions to analyze and critique this value proposition.

Re: The Ethereum Classic Declaration of Independence

#32

Post by wyager »

rumcajz wrote: post #17

If it was Bitcoin I would say putting regulation in place made no sense. If you wanted regulated currency you could use USD, EUR and so on. As for ETH putting regulation in place makes more sense. What you get is "regulated smart contracts" environment. "Fiat smart contracts" if you will. The real question then turns into: How is the regulatory authority governed? Is it a participatory democracy? A representative dem…

If I wanted plain old human-managed contracts, I would just use the legal system. As much as I instinctively distrust the government, I trust the government to handle my contracts a lot more than I trust some random software devs who thought it was a good idea to write multi-million dollar smart contracts in a language inspired by Javascript.

> "Fiat smart contracts"

Isn't this just a synonym for "regular contract"?

Re: The Ethereum Classic Declaration of Independence

#33

Post by wyager »

shoyer wrote: post #24

I can't tell if the article is serious, knowingly over the top, or even an act of an epic trolling. In any case, it's an excellent demonstration of how techno-libertarian crypto-currency advocates inhabit an entirely alternative reality.

> techno-libertarian crypto-currency advocates inhabit an entirely alternative reality.

I really don't understand how people keep parroting stuff like this. By any metric, Bitcoin has been a resounding success and has completely discredited any of its original detractors. Despite this, people still go around saying "Haha, Bitcoin, what a silly idea. It will never work.". It already has worked!

If anything, people like you (no personal insult intended, I'm simply addressing your comment) seem to inhabit some alternate reality where Bitcoin isn't tremendously valuable and there isn't a booming economy (with white, black, and grey markets) build around Bitcoin.

Re: The Ethereum Classic Declaration of Independence

#34

Post by Uptrenda »

I was curious what the respective chains hashrate is:

Ethereum classic: 650~ GH/s

Ethereum: 4400~ GH/s

The minority chain is honestly doing better than I expected. I wonder how long it will last?

What about price:

Classic: $1.87 USD

Ethereum: $11.69 USD

That's fairly significant volume for both. It will be interesting to see where this ends up.

Re: The Ethereum Classic Declaration of Independence

#35

Post by jfoutz »

RandomBK wrote: post #31
jfoutz wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but I already have a financial system where humans make usually-reasonable judgments about fraud and can reverse transactions. It's not perfect, but I have a decent set of expectations about it, it works well enough, and it's very well-supported. Totally independent of Ethereum, this style of argument is kinda weak. We really should be trying to build something better, either by improving the existing system or bui…

>Totally independent of Ethereum, this style of argument is kinda weak. We really should be trying to build something better, either by improving the existing system or building a parallel system that will slowly replace what's there. Good enough is the enemy of great. While I agree that this style of rethoric is often overused, GP does raise an important question. Now that Ethereum has forked, there is a great deal…

>GP does raise an important question. Now that Ethereum has forked, there is a great deal of uncertainty regarding the real benefits of the system, and about whether the benefit is worth the risk of switching.

Oh, absolutely. We should always talk about what was good, what was bad, and what was irrelevant.

I feel the "what we have now is ok" argument is dismissive. It actively prevents us considering the good, bad or irrelevant perspective.

After rereading everything, perhaps i was harsh. The OP presented things in comparison to the current system, which is the right thing to do. I think the emphasis on "the current system works" distracted me.

Re: The Ethereum Classic Declaration of Independence

#36

Post by jnpn »

wyager wrote: post #30
jnpn wrote: post #23

For those who havent been paying attention to the drama: this is a breakaway blockchain for people who want to use ethereum but refuse to use a blockchain in which a $50MM exploit was reversed. There's a lot of false information out there, particularly about how/why the exploit was reversed. Don't take anyone's word for it; ask for sources.

> a $50MM exploit Calling it an exploit seems politically charged. There wasn't an exploit in the Ethereum software itself, which behaved exactly as intended. Instead, someone wrote a shitty, poorly-designed contract that had a loophole in it. Someone took advantage of that loophole and make a bunch of money off of it. To me, "exploit" has connotations of breaking the ethereum system somehow, which was not the case.…

exploit: "a software tool designed to take advantage of a flaw in a computer system"

The exploit was on a poorly written smart contract, not ethereum itself, correct -- I never said otherwise.

>the judgement of the Ethereum devs to have ultimate control and veto power over anything

This is the misinformation I'm talking about. The Ethereum devs had neither control nor veto power. That's simply not how hard forking works.

It was made clear multiple times that the decision was up to the community.[1][2] The decision was coordinated via a decentralized community hashpower vote,[3][4] and executed via a majority hashpower commitment.[5] Exchanges and the foundation carried on with the longest chain[6] as is intended with nakamoto consensus.[7]

[1]https://www.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/4r9yud/the_curren... [2]https://www.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/4ro2p9/options_in... [3]https://www.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/4tlb1y/hard_fork_... [4]https://www.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/4tffta/hard_fork_... [5]https://www.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/4tsl16/new_blog_p... [6]https://poloniex.com/press-releases/2016.07.15-Ethereum-Hard... [7]http://nakamotoinstitute.org/bitcoin/

Re: The Ethereum Classic Declaration of Independence

#37

Post by Dylan16807 »

wyager wrote: post #30
jnpn wrote: post #23

For those who havent been paying attention to the drama: this is a breakaway blockchain for people who want to use ethereum but refuse to use a blockchain in which a $50MM exploit was reversed. There's a lot of false information out there, particularly about how/why the exploit was reversed. Don't take anyone's word for it; ask for sources.

> a $50MM exploit Calling it an exploit seems politically charged. There wasn't an exploit in the Ethereum software itself, which behaved exactly as intended. Instead, someone wrote a shitty, poorly-designed contract that had a loophole in it. Someone took advantage of that loophole and make a bunch of money off of it. To me, "exploit" has connotations of breaking the ethereum system somehow, which was not the case.…

The devs, or the miners?

Re: The Ethereum Classic Declaration of Independence

#38

Post by Dylan16807 »

avz wrote: post #10

It is very refreshing to see people stand up for principles against narrow self-interest of a political group or authority.

It's principles either way. The principle of binding contracts vs. the principle of agreements performing as intended.

Re: The Ethereum Classic Declaration of Independence

#39

Post by mavhc »

wyager wrote: post #33
shoyer wrote: post #24

I can't tell if the article is serious, knowingly over the top, or even an act of an epic trolling. In any case, it's an excellent demonstration of how techno-libertarian crypto-currency advocates inhabit an entirely alternative reality.

> techno-libertarian crypto-currency advocates inhabit an entirely alternative reality. I really don't understand how people keep parroting stuff like this. By any metric, Bitcoin has been a resounding success and has completely discredited any of its original detractors. Despite this, people still go around saying "Haha, Bitcoin, what a silly idea. It will never work.". It already has worked! If anything, people lik…

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