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Too Poor to Afford the Internet

nytimes.com

21–30 of 158 posts

Re: Too Poor to Afford the Internet

#21
post #13

Interesting. I live in a country with a minimum wage of $58 a month (Ukraine) and yet the internet is one of the few things that pretty much anyone can afford: high speed connections (50-100mbps) cost about $2-4; rarely more. Are american high prices the result of scummy pricing on the corporations' side or is it an actual infrastructural issue that prevents the ISPs from providing cheap connections to everyone?

Many countries benefited from having a government owned telecom monopoly.

In the US, we get the downside legacies of a monopoly without the benefit of government control.

The last mile and regional infrastructure (poles, mostly) is owned by private interests, who tend to be dicks about sharing. There's also a regulatory tension between the Federal government and state governments.

Re: Too Poor to Afford the Internet

#22
Another huge aspect of poverty and internet access is the increasing number of households who don't have wifi but use only their phones for internet access. ("one-quarter of those earning below the median income and one-third of those living below poverty level accessed the Internet only through their mobile devices." https://theconversation.com/many-low-income-students-use-onl... and if you want more http://qz.com/580024/more-americans-are-relying-exclusively-... )

The world really looks different if you only have a handheld device -- it's more read-only and because of caps and expensive mobile plans, you will use it less.

In cities there's a chance that libraries can help, but with rural poverty it's really a trap!

Re: Too Poor to Afford the Internet

#23
post #10

Can I just say how much I love the way public libraries have navigated themselves into the digital age? They are, as this piece points out, very popular places to access computers and the Internet, and many libraries offer a wealth of digital content. I can check out and instantly download e-books and audiobooks and movies from my library. It's certainly conceivable that they might have transitioned less well. There…

In Finland many public libraries nowadays have even 3D printers and film slide scanners, and arrange training sessions for their use. It's really a wonderful system, and probably not even that expensive considering the learning potential for even the disadvantaged citizens.

Re: Too Poor to Afford the Internet

#24

I'm torn about this. On the one hand it's clear that access to the Internet is almost as important as other utilies, such as clean water and heating oil. On the other hand regulation is exactly how broadband rollout has been stifled in the past and present by incumbents, and is at least partly to blame why it's so expensive right now. I want it deregulated and opened up to very serious competition. I also want our go…

> I want it deregulated and opened up to very serious competition. I also want our government to build reliable infrastructure (fiber) as much as is possible.

I'm not surprised that you feel torn. Those desires are in direct contradiction with each other.

Even if you're referring to splitting infra from service, there will still be regulation. You'll also see law enforcement becoming very interested in the fact that interconnects and the last mile are now government property.

Re: Too Poor to Afford the Internet

#25

Is it really $50 per month for basic internet in New York? In the UK https://www.uswitch.com/broadband/packages/ shows the cheapest broadband package - which includes telephone line rental - to be £18 per month (average across the contract when delivered router is included). That's around $25 (you can get "free" with a telephone service). What struck me was the kid in the header image has a swanky new laptop, the sto…

I live in Albany, NY and pay TWC $80 for a 50/5 connection. $50 gets you 25/1. Our stupid state government gave them more money to make 50/5 100/7.

Our library gets a lot of Internet patronage. In our city the library has done a great job of transitioning into a third place. People like to use the "think of the poor children" card, but I see all walks of life there. It's a great place.

Re: Too Poor to Afford the Internet

#26
post #10

Can I just say how much I love the way public libraries have navigated themselves into the digital age? They are, as this piece points out, very popular places to access computers and the Internet, and many libraries offer a wealth of digital content. I can check out and instantly download e-books and audiobooks and movies from my library. It's certainly conceivable that they might have transitioned less well. There…

Yes, I discovered this myself far later than I should have!

The SF central branch has a really good selection of programming/tech books. Also, having a library card enables access (as you note) to a wide selection of ebooks[1].

(I note, however, that the interface that you can use them through could use some redesign.)

[1] http://sfpl.org/index.php?pg=2000005001

Re: Too Poor to Afford the Internet

#27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That will hopefully come soon enough - https://www.charter.com/merger-twc

Doesn't reducing the number of suppliers of a product tend to reduce competition and increase prices?

Charter was the only cable company allowed to buy TWC because of their track record. Both Comcast and Cox considered it, and the FCC straight up said no, they would never approve it.

The former Adelphia areas that went to Comcast got marginally better (more uniform towards product offerings in line with existing Comcast), but are still overpriced shit, and the areas that TWC got worse to match TWC's existing shittyness.

Given how TWC is a toxic shithole of a company, and Comcast is barely any different, Charter has actually made a name for themselves for being customer oriented, not short term anti-profit like the other two, and the FCC happily allowed the merger.

Charter's pricing is generally lower, their customer support is generally better, and they actually rebuild areas they buy instead of letting them rot like TWC (and also Verizon, on the teleco side).

tl;dr if the companies refuse to compete, how is any of it considered "competition"?

Re: Too Poor to Afford the Internet

#28
post #13

Interesting. I live in a country with a minimum wage of $58 a month (Ukraine) and yet the internet is one of the few things that pretty much anyone can afford: high speed connections (50-100mbps) cost about $2-4; rarely more. Are american high prices the result of scummy pricing on the corporations' side or is it an actual infrastructural issue that prevents the ISPs from providing cheap connections to everyone?

The vast majority of the cost of any kind of infrastructure is labor, which scales with local wages.[1] A New York subway ticket is about $2.75. That's about 11x more than the cost of a ticket on the Kiev Metro. And it's not like the New York subway makes a profit--fares cover only about half the system's operating costs.[2]

In Baltimore, I paid about $50 for a 50mbps connection, or about 20x more than a subway ticket. Sounds like the ratio is about the same order of magnitude in Ukraine.

[1] A telecom field technican in the U.S. makes about $6,000-$7,000 per month, plus benefits. That's about 20x what the average Ukrainian in Kiev makes (according to the Internet).

[2] Fares on D.C.'s metro, which similarly cover only about 50% of costs, range from $1.75 to $5.90(!).

Re: Too Poor to Afford the Internet

#29
post #13

Interesting. I live in a country with a minimum wage of $58 a month (Ukraine) and yet the internet is one of the few things that pretty much anyone can afford: high speed connections (50-100mbps) cost about $2-4; rarely more. Are american high prices the result of scummy pricing on the corporations' side or is it an actual infrastructural issue that prevents the ISPs from providing cheap connections to everyone?

Corporate and local government bureaucracy.

I've lived in very affluent neighborhoods that have access to a single, shitty, ISP. So even when you can afford the inflated and outrageous prices you're still at the mercy of an incredibly corrupt and poor preforming corporation.

Re: Too Poor to Afford the Internet

#30
You need water to be a productive member of society. (Or to survive at all, but that's a prerequisite.) You need food to be a productive member of society. (Or to survive at all, but that's a prerequisite.) You need shelter to be a productive member of society. More often that not, you need electricity to be a productive member of society. Increasingly so, you need internet to be a productive member of society.

In every case, the person consuming these resources either:

[a] pays for them on their own

[b] is provided them but paid by someone else, possibly in aggregate (family, government services, charity)

[c] not provided them at all, in which case they are no longer a productive member of society (or worse, near-starving, starving, or dead)

Ethics and economic systems notwithstanding, the first few are 'hard problems' that humanity has struggled with for millennia. Internet access is comparatively easy, because the marginal costs of distribution are low, but just like other 'utilities' and 'necessities', the capital cost is high.

One way to offset this is to create a market like for electricity, where multiple players, some private, some government-owned, compete at the supply-side and distribution-side, to provide capacity at prices that are close to the cost of (production+transmission) for the area.

Luckily, unlike electricity, water, food, or shelter, information can be duplicated, format-shifted, batched, compressed, time-delayed, and the like. If fixed-fiber-based Internet to arbitrary endpoints is too expensive despite the presence of a market, cache or store more content closer to the consumer on CDNs. If last-mile distribution is too expensive, switch to a different last-mile distribution paradigm -- this latter one is what public libraries (and public hotspots) currently accomplish. If bi-directional communication is desired, investigate peer-to-peer solutions. There's so much potential in LANs, WANs, sneakernet, (TV/radio/data) broadcast that goes untapped.

We're stuck here because right now telcos are a terrible market and the monopolies are granted at the wrong level; but also because we're assuming that getting direct, end-to-end connection from one of the big telcos is the only way to digitally communicate.

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