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DEA regularly mines Americans' travel records to seize millions in cash

usatoday.com

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Re: DEA regularly mines Americans' travel records to seize millions in cash

#11

Post by Zak »

gtirloni wrote: post #5
zeveb wrote: post #4

> Federal drug agents regularly mine Americans’ travel information to profile people who might be ferrying money for narcotics traffickers — though they almost never use what they learn to make arrests or build criminal cases. > Instead, that targeting has helped the Drug Enforcement Administration seize a small fortune in cash. So, they're basically the Sheriff of Nottingham, or the old Central European robber baron…

> DEA units assigned to patrol 15 of the nation’s busiest airports seized more than $209 million in cash from at least 5,200 people over the past decade after concluding the money was linked to drug trafficking So was it drug money or not?

Some of the money certainly was, perhaps even most. It is, however a grave injustice when money that is totally legitimate gets seized from innocent people, and some of the people mentioned in the article had strong evidence for their money being from legitimate sources.

The fundamental problem is that the standard of proof required is much lower than in criminal law. The legislative remedy some states have started to use is to require a criminal charge to seize property and a criminal conviction for forfeiture.

Re: DEA regularly mines Americans' travel records to seize millions in cash

#12

Post by cloudjacker »

emodendroket wrote: post #7
gtirloni wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> DEA units assigned to patrol 15 of the nation’s busiest airports seized more than $209 million in cash from at least 5,200 people over the past decade after concluding the money was linked to drug trafficking So was it drug money or not?

I mean, it's plausible in all these stories that it is. But it seems like there should be a higher standard before the feds can take tens of thousands of dollars from you.

Ok some cognitive dissonance here I see:

If someone told you Brazilian police were taking people's cash you wouldn't for one second think there was some non self serving aspect to this. You wouldn't even look to see if there was any law supporting it. You would just dismiss it as corrupt police officers in a corrupt system, just like you should be doing in this case.

Forgot for a moment that you recited that pledge every morning for 13 years of your life, and think about how someone not from America would perceive this

Re: DEA regularly mines Americans' travel records to seize millions in cash

#13

Post by emodendroket »

cloudjacker wrote: post #12
emodendroket wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, it's plausible in all these stories that it is. But it seems like there should be a higher standard before the feds can take tens of thousands of dollars from you.

Ok some cognitive dissonance here I see: If someone told you Brazilian police were taking people's cash you wouldn't for one second think there was some non self serving aspect to this. You wouldn't even look to see if there was any law supporting it. You would just dismiss it as corrupt police officers in a corrupt system, just like you should be doing in this case. Forgot for a moment that you recited that pledge e…

I'm not saying "hey, it's totally OK that they're doing this" or that it's not self-serving. What I'm saying is that these people are not exactly as sympathetic/blameless as some of the other asset forfeiture articles I've read.

Re: DEA regularly mines Americans' travel records to seize millions in cash

#14

Post by emodendroket »

MichaelGG wrote: post #9
gtirloni wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> DEA units assigned to patrol 15 of the nation’s busiest airports seized more than $209 million in cash from at least 5,200 people over the past decade after concluding the money was linked to drug trafficking So was it drug money or not?

It's easy for them to conclude, with no due process. They just say so, take the money, and leave you having to file suit and fight the government to get your own money back. Asset forfeiture is more of a travesty than money "laundering" being a crime is. The sicker part is that it's just admitting that their justice system is so broken that they wouldn't be able to get convictions against these "criminals" otherwise.

> Asset forfeiture is more of a travesty than money "laundering" being a crime is.

I'm not sure why it's a travesty that it's illegal to conceal the source of illegally-earned money.

Re: DEA regularly mines Americans' travel records to seize millions in cash

#15

Post by mindslight »

emodendroket wrote: post #14
MichaelGG wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's easy for them to conclude, with no due process. They just say so, take the money, and leave you having to file suit and fight the government to get your own money back. Asset forfeiture is more of a travesty than money "laundering" being a crime is. The sicker part is that it's just admitting that their justice system is so broken that they wouldn't be able to get convictions against these "criminals" otherwise.

> Asset forfeiture is more of a travesty than money "laundering" being a crime is. I'm not sure why it's a travesty that it's illegal to conceal the source of illegally-earned money.

The entire purpose of money is to be fungible. $1 is worth exactly the same as another $1. Inventing the crime of "money laundering" erodes the very concept of money by making its exchange value dependent on who you know and how politically connected they are.

Furthermore, forcing people to structure their activities to be legible to the government is making everybody work as an informant against themselves.

Re: DEA regularly mines Americans' travel records to seize millions in cash

#17

Post by didgeoridoo »

emodendroket wrote: post #14
MichaelGG wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's easy for them to conclude, with no due process. They just say so, take the money, and leave you having to file suit and fight the government to get your own money back. Asset forfeiture is more of a travesty than money "laundering" being a crime is. The sicker part is that it's just admitting that their justice system is so broken that they wouldn't be able to get convictions against these "criminals" otherwise.

> Asset forfeiture is more of a travesty than money "laundering" being a crime is. I'm not sure why it's a travesty that it's illegal to conceal the source of illegally-earned money.

Because "nor shall any person... be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law...". 5th Amendment to the Constitution. Unless you think "due process" == "Because I said so", it is both legally and morally a travesty.

Re: DEA regularly mines Americans' travel records to seize millions in cash

#18

Post by gohrt »

mindslight wrote: post #15
emodendroket wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Asset forfeiture is more of a travesty than money "laundering" being a crime is. I'm not sure why it's a travesty that it's illegal to conceal the source of illegally-earned money.

The entire purpose of money is to be fungible. $1 is worth exactly the same as another $1. Inventing the crime of "money laundering" erodes the very concept of money by making its exchange value dependent on who you know and how politically connected they are. Furthermore, forcing people to structure their activities to be legible to the government is making everybody work as an informant against themselves.

That dollar is still worth a dollar after it it seized from the criminal who stole it. Same as any stolen property.

Re: DEA regularly mines Americans' travel records to seize millions in cash

#19

Post by dragonwriter »

didgeoridoo wrote: post #17
emodendroket wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Asset forfeiture is more of a travesty than money "laundering" being a crime is. I'm not sure why it's a travesty that it's illegal to conceal the source of illegally-earned money.

Because "nor shall any person... be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law...". 5th Amendment to the Constitution. Unless you think "due process" == "Because I said so", it is both legally and morally a travesty.

Civil forfeiture has considerably more procedural protection than "because I said so"; which is not to say that certain applications of it are not deeply problematic, but hyperbole is not helpful in discussing them.

Re: DEA regularly mines Americans' travel records to seize millions in cash

#20

Post by gohrt »

didgeoridoo wrote: post #17
emodendroket wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Asset forfeiture is more of a travesty than money "laundering" being a crime is. I'm not sure why it's a travesty that it's illegal to conceal the source of illegally-earned money.

Because "nor shall any person... be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law...". 5th Amendment to the Constitution. Unless you think "due process" == "Because I said so", it is both legally and morally a travesty.

PP was saying that "money laundering being a crime" is not a travesty, not that civil forfeiture is not a travesty.
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