Why It Doesn't Pay to Be a People Pleaser • Hacker News Board

Re: Why It Doesn't Pay to Be a People Pleaser

#101

Post by r00fus » Wed, Aug 10, 2016, 8:39 PM UTC

kross wrote: post #77

avindroth wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay. Let's take an example from the article. Be transparent, honest, and authentic. Do not ever waiver from this; white lies and false smiles quickly snowball into a life lived out of alignment. Let's say John is this guy who is "transparent, honest, and authentic, and never waivering." And say Jack, John's friend, is addicted to playing Overwatch. John comes by and says, "Jack, you shouldn't play Overwatch. You are…

There are some other foundational things needed for living a full life (which I infer is the author's point). > "Jack, you shouldn't play Overwatch..." This is judgement, which implies ego. The indicator here is "shouldn't". Ego isn't an authentic representation of self, it is fiction. If we can become aware of ego and avoid following it's incessant needs, we are closer to ego-lessness which can contribute significan…

The key word is "should" aka "shoulding yourself/someone else" aka "musterbation" [1].

When you detect this from yourself or others, you are best advised to steer the wording/conversation so it's factual and not a guilt-trip. If you cannot, you will find yourself in a very frustrating place.

http://daphne.palomar.edu/jtagg/should.htm

Re: Why It Doesn't Pay to Be a People Pleaser

#102

Post by Vokrel » Wed, Aug 10, 2016, 8:41 PM UTC

It doesn't pay to please all people all of the time.

It pays to please some people some of the time.

As with a number of other tools and strategies, you have to leverage it at the right moment, the right rhythm. If you don't have an intuitionistic idea of the ratio between truth and small lies that are necessary to functioning. People don't talk to exchange truth about the world, they talk mostly to repeat signals at a constant rhythm which sends a larger signal of "confidence" or "competency" or "trustworthiness" or even "this person is safe and stable to be around".

Yeah, there's a cognitive cost to anticipating other minds unless you're blessed with some capacity that is never stressed. There's also a cognitive cost to maintaining executive function without being swallowed by groupthink.

>people pleasing is selfish and manipulative

Your entire edifice of actions is the selfish and manipulative desires of your morality to instantiate itself in real space.

Re: Why It Doesn't Pay to Be a People Pleaser

#103

Post by Vokrel » Wed, Aug 10, 2016, 8:42 PM UTC

It doesn't pay to please all people all of the time.

It pays to please some people some of the time.

As with a number of other tools and strategies, you have to leverage it at the right moment, the right rhythm. If you don't have an intuitionistic idea of the ratio between truth and small lies that are necessary to functioning...I'd probably stick to simplistic non-anticipatory models until you get a better idea of how people work.

People don't talk to exchange truth about the world, they talk mostly to repeat signals at a constant rhythm which sends a larger signal of "confidence" or "competency" or "trustworthiness" or even "this person is safe and stable to be around".

Yeah, there's a cognitive cost to anticipating other minds unless you're blessed with some capacity that is never stressed. There's also a cognitive cost to maintaining executive function without being swallowed by groupthink.

>people pleasing is selfish and manipulative

Your entire edifice of actions is the selfish and manipulative desires of your morality to instantiate itself in real space.

Re: Why It Doesn't Pay to Be a People Pleaser

#104

Post by Kluny » Wed, Aug 10, 2016, 8:44 PM UTC

pavlov wrote: post #40

specialist wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"selfish and manipulative in interactions with other people" aka reciprocal altruism. As I've aged, I've embraced transactional relationships. My metaphor is "playing catch". Toss the ball, hope your partner tosses it back. Repeat. The goal is to keep the game going. Some one doesn't throw the ball back, oh well, move on to next partner. Works remarkably well for children, lovers, coworkers, grocery store checkers, a…

...move on to next partner. Works remarkably well for children I'm curious how you actually follow through on that with children. It's hard to move on from them (without inflicting lifetime psychological trauma, anyway).

It's not necessarily cutting the person out of your life. You can move on from the conversation, then come back to it another time.

Re: Why It Doesn't Pay to Be a People Pleaser

#105

Post by logfromblammo » Wed, Aug 10, 2016, 9:01 PM UTC

HerpDerpLerp wrote: post #4

Hmm well I don't want to hear what a nightmare my colleagues lives are. I ask "How was the weekend" you say "Fine". I don't care that your house burned down. Yep I am a brit!

I like it better like this:

  Mr. A: How was your weekend?
  Mr. B: Fine.  Bit of trouble with the house, though.
  Mr. A: Nothing serious, I hope?
  Mr. B: No, not at all.  A little fire got out of control for a bit.
  Mr. A: Was there much damage?
  Mr. B: No, once it got down to the foundations it went right out.
  Mr. A: Was anybody hurt?
  Mr. B: Not much.  Grandma died very gently from the smoke inhalation.
         And I lost barely more than my eyebrows and 15% of my skin.
  Mr. A: That's lucky.
  Mr. B: Quite right.  How was yours?
  Mr. A: Fine.  Bit of trouble with the car....

Re: Why It Doesn't Pay to Be a People Pleaser

#106

Post by dragonwriter » Wed, Aug 10, 2016, 9:15 PM UTC

wbl wrote: post #16

HerpDerpLerp wrote: post #4

Hmm well I don't want to hear what a nightmare my colleagues lives are. I ask "How was the weekend" you say "Fine". I don't care that your house burned down. Yep I am a brit!

Why would you ask if you don't want to hear the answer?

> Why would you ask if you don't want to hear the answer?

For lots of people the "How are you?" "Fine." exchange is a ritualized interaction which has become detached from the literal meanings of the words. Like the fact that even non-religious people use a contraction of "God Be With Ye" when parting.

Re: Why It Doesn't Pay to Be a People Pleaser

#107

Post by gingerrr » Wed, Aug 10, 2016, 9:31 PM UTC

w1ntermute wrote: post #10

divbit wrote: post #2

> Live with total integrity. Be transparent, honest, and authentic. Do not ever waiver from this; white lies and false smiles quickly snowball into a life lived out of alignment. Words to live by

Not at all. If you don't understand how to employ false smiles as needed, you won't get very far in life. This was one of the biggest mistakes I made when I was young. Once I learned how to stop being totally honest and how to be friendly to even those I didn't like, a lot of opportunities opened up that I would have never been exposed to otherwise. Simple example: I maintain friendships with people I don't genuinely…

I don't think you understand the difference between "acquaintanceship" and "friendship".

If you don't genuinely like someone you're acquainted with, you're not being a friend when you pretend you do. You're being a manipulative, self-interested social investor, keeping a volatile asset around because of its potential payoff. Friendship, like romance (but less intensely), means an aconditional (not unconditional) acceptance of another's flaws - not just tolerance for a potential benefit.

I actually agree very much with your main point, that false smiles and "white lie" smalltalk really do have their place. I grew up enamored with the practice of radical honesty, but it only works when in a group of individuals with very high self-esteem. The point of faking nice isn't to dissemble, but to make a goodwill attempt to ensure that the people around you can feel comfortable to practice genuineness without judgment.

Not that that isn't a selfish and manipulative goal itself. I prefer being genuine in my interactions across the board, the only way to do that is to gradually accustom the people in my life to being comfortable being genuine back.

tl;dr you're not maintaining "friendships", but I don't think your choices are more or less selfish than any other.

Re: Why It Doesn't Pay to Be a People Pleaser

#108

Post by mizzao » Wed, Aug 10, 2016, 9:37 PM UTC

matwood wrote: post #62

avindroth wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay. Let's take an example from the article. Be transparent, honest, and authentic. Do not ever waiver from this; white lies and false smiles quickly snowball into a life lived out of alignment. Let's say John is this guy who is "transparent, honest, and authentic, and never waivering." And say Jack, John's friend, is addicted to playing Overwatch. John comes by and says, "Jack, you shouldn't play Overwatch. You are…

You can be honest without being an asshole. This is related to people who win arguments as assholes. Sure they won, but they pissed everyone off so what does it matter? Then they go hide behind "I'm just being honest." No, that's being an asshole. There is saying, "you can shear a sheep over and over, but you can only skin it once." Learn to shear.

There was some wisdom written about this, almost 2000 years ago:

1 Corinthians 13:1-3 : "If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing."

To paraphrase: truth without love (e.g. being an asshole) is just ineffective noise. (Conversely, love without truth is not love at all.)

Re: Why It Doesn't Pay to Be a People Pleaser

#109

Post by __abc » Wed, Aug 10, 2016, 9:57 PM UTC

rad88 wrote: post #73

__abc wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"House ape" .... I'm using this.

Please don't. If you have difficulties with your children, using this term can only make them worse.

??? Why on earth would I say this to my children? ???

Such a weird assumption to make ...

Re: Why It Doesn't Pay to Be a People Pleaser

#110

Post by dpark » Wed, Aug 10, 2016, 10:07 PM UTC

avindroth wrote: post #34

benatkin wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The author defines people pleasing: > People pleasing, in my extensive personal experience, is a process of guessing what other people want, or what will make them think favorably of us, and then acting accordingly. People pleasing isn't caring about other people. It's being selfish and manipulative in interactions with other people (often without realizing it). Quite the opposite.

Okay. Let's take an example from the article. Be transparent, honest, and authentic. Do not ever waiver from this; white lies and false smiles quickly snowball into a life lived out of alignment. Let's say John is this guy who is "transparent, honest, and authentic, and never waivering." And say Jack, John's friend, is addicted to playing Overwatch. John comes by and says, "Jack, you shouldn't play Overwatch. You are…

> Then Jack opens up to Steve, which, in due time, can allow Steve to change Jack's mind.

That's some pretty impressive hand-waving. The more likely outcome is that Jack keeps playing his game and Steve just wasted a bunch of time trying and failing to manipulate his "friend".