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Beyond Bitcoin – Part II: Blockchain-based systems without mining [pdf]

eprint.iacr.org

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Re: Beyond Bitcoin – Part II: Blockchain-based systems without mining [pdf]

#21

Post by 314 »

TD-Linux wrote: post #13

This paper describes three alternatives to Bitcoin's proof-of-work: proof of blockchain storage, alternate proofs of work, and proof-of-stake. These ideas have come up many times in Bitcoin before. 1. Proof of blockchain storage: This provides no security on its own but has been suggested many times to prevent SPV mining. 2. Alternate proofs of work: the idea is to have "cheaper" proofs of work. One of the proofs of…

There is another interesting idea buried in there: switch from a "lottery" to a "raffle" (their terminology). Or in more standard terms - change from a winner takes all distribution of rewards to a proportional distribution: everybody who mines the next block in the chain get some reward.

I did not see any ideas for how this could be implemented, but it could remove a drive towards centralisation from the current blockchain approach.

Re: Beyond Bitcoin – Part II: Blockchain-based systems without mining [pdf]

#22

Post by runeks »

aeijdenberg wrote: post #14

If you accept that for many uses of publicly verifiable data structures that centralization is actually OK (and actually often a good thing, as it matches well how most democratic societies function), then there are other simpler alternatives to proof-of-work that still give many of the same benefits. See for examples the append-only logs used in Certificate Transparency ( https://www.certificate-transparency.org ),…

The difference is that this data structure defines who's rich and who isn't (literally). There is a whole lot more incentive to tamper with such a data structure than basically any other data structure in existence.

Re: Beyond Bitcoin – Part II: Blockchain-based systems without mining [pdf]

#23

Post by jerguismi »

314 wrote: post #21
TD-Linux wrote: post #13

This paper describes three alternatives to Bitcoin's proof-of-work: proof of blockchain storage, alternate proofs of work, and proof-of-stake. These ideas have come up many times in Bitcoin before. 1. Proof of blockchain storage: This provides no security on its own but has been suggested many times to prevent SPV mining. 2. Alternate proofs of work: the idea is to have "cheaper" proofs of work. One of the proofs of…

There is another interesting idea buried in there: switch from a "lottery" to a "raffle" (their terminology). Or in more standard terms - change from a winner takes all distribution of rewards to a proportional distribution: everybody who mines the next block in the chain get some reward. I did not see any ideas for how this could be implemented, but it could remove a drive towards centralisation from the current blo…

Don't mining pools do this already to some extent?

Re: Beyond Bitcoin – Part II: Blockchain-based systems without mining [pdf]

#24

Post by duozerk »

jerguismi wrote: post #23
314 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is another interesting idea buried in there: switch from a "lottery" to a "raffle" (their terminology). Or in more standard terms - change from a winner takes all distribution of rewards to a proportional distribution: everybody who mines the next block in the chain get some reward. I did not see any ideas for how this could be implemented, but it could remove a drive towards centralisation from the current blo…

Don't mining pools do this already to some extent?

They do; but the proposed system would do the same thing in an entirely non-centralized way.

This would be a good thing because as it is now, there are multi-coins pools that will switch their users' hashing power to other chains depending on how profitable coins are. The concern is that large mining pools have a lot of combined hashing power and some dishonest ones could consider switching that power to specific coins not based on the revenue potential but for other reasons (51% attacks and the like).

Re: Beyond Bitcoin – Part II: Blockchain-based systems without mining [pdf]

#25

Post by duozerk »

TD-Linux wrote: post #13

This paper describes three alternatives to Bitcoin's proof-of-work: proof of blockchain storage, alternate proofs of work, and proof-of-stake. These ideas have come up many times in Bitcoin before. 1. Proof of blockchain storage: This provides no security on its own but has been suggested many times to prevent SPV mining. 2. Alternate proofs of work: the idea is to have "cheaper" proofs of work. One of the proofs of…

What I'd love to see (don't know if this has been explored to some extent yet) would be proof of work but for useful work: think Folding@home or Einstein@home (BOINC stuff in general) in order to mine a blockchain.

It's very hard to do (if it is even possible) in a non-centralized way though. Who submits the work ? who validates it has been performed properly ? and so on.

Re: Beyond Bitcoin – Part II: Blockchain-based systems without mining [pdf]

#26

Post by UweSchmidt »

duozerk wrote: post #25
TD-Linux wrote: post #13

This paper describes three alternatives to Bitcoin's proof-of-work: proof of blockchain storage, alternate proofs of work, and proof-of-stake. These ideas have come up many times in Bitcoin before. 1. Proof of blockchain storage: This provides no security on its own but has been suggested many times to prevent SPV mining. 2. Alternate proofs of work: the idea is to have "cheaper" proofs of work. One of the proofs of…

What I'd love to see (don't know if this has been explored to some extent yet) would be proof of work but for useful work: think Folding@home or Einstein@home (BOINC stuff in general) in order to mine a blockchain. It's very hard to do (if it is even possible) in a non-centralized way though. Who submits the work ? who validates it has been performed properly ? and so on.

This is Ethereum: "Mining" generates Ethers, but also runs code, potentially powering useful blockchain apps.

Re: Beyond Bitcoin – Part II: Blockchain-based systems without mining [pdf]

#27

Post by duozerk »

UweSchmidt wrote: post #26
duozerk wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I'd love to see (don't know if this has been explored to some extent yet) would be proof of work but for useful work: think Folding@home or Einstein@home (BOINC stuff in general) in order to mine a blockchain. It's very hard to do (if it is even possible) in a non-centralized way though. Who submits the work ? who validates it has been performed properly ? and so on.

This is Ethereum: "Mining" generates Ethers, but also runs code, potentially powering useful blockchain apps.

The current PoW algorithm in ethereum is ethash and does not perform useful work during coin generation, unless I'm mistaken. You spend ether to fuel useful work.

Also, Ethereum (forked) aim to switch to PoS soon (ETC may not).

Re: Beyond Bitcoin – Part II: Blockchain-based systems without mining [pdf]

#28

Post by UweSchmidt »

duozerk wrote: post #27
UweSchmidt wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is Ethereum: "Mining" generates Ethers, but also runs code, potentially powering useful blockchain apps.

The current PoW algorithm in ethereum is ethash and does not perform useful work during coin generation, unless I'm mistaken. You spend ether to fuel useful work. Also, Ethereum (forked) aim to switch to PoS soon (ETC may not).

Of course you are right, coin generation is a waste. The part where ether is changing hands for useful work is at least somewhat "useful".

Best we can hope for is a future blockchain that emphasizes this kind of work more. A seti@home-coin or cure-cancer-coin is, as you suggested, hard to implement.

Re: Beyond Bitcoin – Part II: Blockchain-based systems without mining [pdf]

#29

Post by codingmyway »

duozerk wrote: post #25
TD-Linux wrote: post #13

This paper describes three alternatives to Bitcoin's proof-of-work: proof of blockchain storage, alternate proofs of work, and proof-of-stake. These ideas have come up many times in Bitcoin before. 1. Proof of blockchain storage: This provides no security on its own but has been suggested many times to prevent SPV mining. 2. Alternate proofs of work: the idea is to have "cheaper" proofs of work. One of the proofs of…

What I'd love to see (don't know if this has been explored to some extent yet) would be proof of work but for useful work: think Folding@home or Einstein@home (BOINC stuff in general) in order to mine a blockchain. It's very hard to do (if it is even possible) in a non-centralized way though. Who submits the work ? who validates it has been performed properly ? and so on.

The http://www.truthcoin.info/blog/pow-cheapest link given above explains why you can incentivise useful processing but it won't stop the 'waste' issue.

You also have the problem of regulating the difficulty if you want consistent rewards. Non-pure math problems aren't going to allow that.

Re: Beyond Bitcoin – Part II: Blockchain-based systems without mining [pdf]

#30

Post by codingmyway »

tromp wrote: post #4

On page 4 the paper states "if we outline a scenario in which Bitcoin reaches the same value of the current global fiat money supply, supposing that the energy consumption of global Bitcoin would grow linearly with its value" This supposition is highly unrealistic, since the scenario will likely play out over many decades, during which there will be many block reward halvings (once every 4 years), which will severely…

This is what the halvings are for, to counteract the increase in hashing as the value of coins goes up.
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