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The Japanese language puts students at a disadvantage

japaneseruleof7.com

11–20 of 27 posts

Re: The Japanese language puts students at a disadvantage

#11
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Language is very different when there are literally tens of thousands of characters to learn. Yes and no. Chinese-character based languages are conceptually different to languages employing Roman letters/an alphabet to the point where there isn't a great deal of transferability between Western and East-Asian languages. But people think in composites just as you said - people prompt each other with "anshin no an" or…

> Chinese-character based languages are conceptually different to languages employing ... arguably Japanese is not a Chinese character based language, but a Chinese character adopted language. Looking at Mandarin it kinda makes sense why a character based written language sprung up. Looking at Japanese and Korean, it boggles the mind why only the Koreans moved away from Chinese characters. Except for the borrowed wor…

Japanese is very phoneme-poor. If they switched entirely to hiragana there would be too many indistinguishable homophones. Korean has more phonemes and escapes this somewhat.

Of course, it would still be possible, but Japanese would have to develop some hiragana redundancy (multiple symbols all meaning the same syllable) so that homophones could be spelled differently.

Re: The Japanese language puts students at a disadvantage

#12

can anyone corroborate this?

not a corroboration of the state of Japanese education, but a counterpoint that highlights that American educational system is also fuckin terrible

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2008/06/in-the-b...

similar scenario. the society and its insitutions pressure people into participating in academic life regardless of whether or not they have an aptitude for it. inevitably many of them basically fail and do so in ways that are shocking and appalling to their instructors. however, the institution itself (for a variety of reasons) will accommodate these people regardless of their poor state of educational attainment.

Re: The Japanese language puts students at a disadvantage

#13
There might be something else at play. When I see western scholars trying to interpret Sanskrit scriptures I see the similar mistakes as the author is making here.

I am from India and I have basic familiarity with Japanese and Sanskrit. Both languages rely heavily on context. Since knowledge was mostly passed from master through disciple the information is compressed into smaller sentences easy to memorize. The full meaning was always conveyed through the human interaction. English on other hand seems to have grown during industrial revolution where mass producing information and passing it to people who may no have human being to explain it around was very important. Over years English has evolved to describe all possible information even without the context.

I see western scholars translating Sanskrit word "Namaste" as "Hello" but in reality it is "I bow to you" something that Indians might have well forgotten but they are surely to know the context and a elderly person will not do a "Namaste" to a child. We bow to elders not younger ones.

Similarly Japanse phrase of Itadakemas might be translated merely as "I take" but the English translation does not do justice to it. As an Indian I think I total understand the sentiments behind the phrase.

So I think it would be a mistake to call Japanese people retarded without fully understanding their culture.

Re: The Japanese language puts students at a disadvantage

#14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Chinese-character based languages are conceptually different to languages employing ... arguably Japanese is not a Chinese character based language, but a Chinese character adopted language. Looking at Mandarin it kinda makes sense why a character based written language sprung up. Looking at Japanese and Korean, it boggles the mind why only the Koreans moved away from Chinese characters. Except for the borrowed wor…

Japanese is very phoneme-poor. If they switched entirely to hiragana there would be too many indistinguishable homophones. Korean has more phonemes and escapes this somewhat. Of course, it would still be possible, but Japanese would have to develop some hiragana redundancy (multiple symbols all meaning the same syllable) so that homophones could be spelled differently.

During the cultural revolution, the complete romanization of Chinese was explored. The idea was ultimately abandoned much for a similar reason Japanese will probably struggle to go character-free: there would be too much ambiguity in the written language.

This poem was the go to for people against romanization[0]

[0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lion-Eating_Poet_in_the_Stone_...

Re: The Japanese language puts students at a disadvantage

#15
So, umm, is nobody else going to call this racist?

> Every bookstore, magazine stand, and school, has a significant portion of its bookshelves packed with comic books. Why? It’s generous, and a bit dismissive, to say that Japanese folks simply love “cute” things. It’s probably truer to note that a significant segment of the population isn’t accustomed to reading, or thinking, at an adult level.

> Kids in Spain are reading Kiss of the Spiderwoman , kids in America Harry Potter, and kids in Japan . . . Naruto, the adolescent ninja. What’s Japan famous for? Literature? Movies? Music? Web design? Please. Comic books. Anime. Illustrations everywhere.

Right, I'm guessing they haven't read Tales of Genji or Saikaku or watched many of the films out of Japan in the Criterion collection. But let's dismiss an entire culture and history because of the popularity of anime (which, by the way, is not just for kids, but that's a different topic).

> Japanese people themselves are aware of this; if not individually, then at least as a group. In recent years a flood of new words has entered the language, and guess what, they’re all written with the Japanese phonetic alphabet, katakana.

And that's because they can't read it? WTF. Katakana is pretty. It's marketing. Sometimes Japanese poetry (yes it exists) uses katakana for style and emphasis. I don't claim to know how Japanese marketing works but you, author, don't either.

> Nobody bothers to make kanji for stuff anymore, because half the time, no one can read it.

What? Even if you're being hyperbolic, that's still too much. Yes, there's a lot of difficult kanji even for native speakers. For foreigners like me, it's the biggest barrier to learning it. But to claim that native born speakers can't recognize half the words in common use...

> Ever wonder why Japanese people have such trouble learning English? Just look at how well they speak their own language.

Again, even if you move past the reductive reasoning and general racist stereotyping, it's just plainly wrong. Even in a logical level. Do you really think a nation of people who speak a language can't do it well? Why do they choose that language then?

Seriously, I get "skepticism", but wtf HN. If it looks racist and smells racist, let's not just skid past it and just inquiry about "supporting data".

Re: The Japanese language puts students at a disadvantage

#16
post #9

Reminds of me Kipling's poem whose meaning goes something like this: > The implication, of course, was that the Empire existed not for the benefit — economic or strategic or otherwise — of Britain, itself, but in order that primitive peoples, incapable of self-government, could, with British guidance, eventually become civilized (and Christianized) [1] The author is either writing some kind of bad sarcasm or simple f…

Clearly this article was written tongue in cheek. Perhaps that was lost on you.

Re: The Japanese language puts students at a disadvantage

#17
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Language is very different when there are literally tens of thousands of characters to learn. Yes and no. Chinese-character based languages are conceptually different to languages employing Roman letters/an alphabet to the point where there isn't a great deal of transferability between Western and East-Asian languages. But people think in composites just as you said - people prompt each other with "anshin no an" or…

> Chinese-character based languages are conceptually different to languages employing ... arguably Japanese is not a Chinese character based language, but a Chinese character adopted language. Looking at Mandarin it kinda makes sense why a character based written language sprung up. Looking at Japanese and Korean, it boggles the mind why only the Koreans moved away from Chinese characters. Except for the borrowed wor…

You're right in that linguistically its roots did not come from Chinese, but I don't agree with > except for the borrowed words, spoken Japanese and Mandarin are as far removed as Mandarin and English.

That's a bit of an exaggeration - there are plenty of features in Japanese that make learning Chinese (or vice versa) easier than Mandarin/English. Assuming by "borrowed words" you're referring to onyomi (which is a huge deal in learning languages) there's still the fact that in both Japanese and Chinese (off the top of my head) there is:

- no verbal conjugation

- no genders for nouns

- monosyllabic sounds

- gender ambiguity in pronouns

- no definite article

I'd also argue the concept of tenses is more similar between Japanese and Chinese than Chinese and English.

If you start factoring in things like onyomi, it's a whole different ball-game, and anecdotally I and other people familiar with South-East Chinese dialects (e.g. fujianhua/chaozhouhua) have noticed similarities in the pronunciation of Japanese and Chinese - which makes learning new vocabulary way easier see [0].

[0] https://www.quora.com/What-Chinese-dialect-is-the-most-simil...

Re: The Japanese language puts students at a disadvantage

#18
post #15

So, umm, is nobody else going to call this racist? > Every bookstore, magazine stand, and school, has a significant portion of its bookshelves packed with comic books. Why? It’s generous, and a bit dismissive, to say that Japanese folks simply love “cute” things. It’s probably truer to note that a significant segment of the population isn’t accustomed to reading, or thinking, at an adult level. > Kids in Spain are re…

No, because it is not racist.

The author has lived in Japan and studied Japanese for a long time. If you read some of his other posts for context you will see that he deeply admires and loves the Japanese people and their culture.

This article appears to me to be a cathartic rant about Japanese being so difficult to learn that even many Japanese don't master their own language. I lived in Japan for about 3 years and I can corroborate that Japanese people struggle with their own language. For example, the development of word processing has made the problem even worse. When Japanese people consistently use computers for writing they call themselves "Wa-pu-ro baka" (translation "word processing idiot") because they quickly forget how to write kanji by hand.

Actually it is two rants in one. The first rant is about how college level educational standards are very different in the U.S. and Japan. Although I never attended university in Japan, I've met many Japanese college students and their stories corroborate the author's claims of ridiculously easy grading standards.

Re: The Japanese language puts students at a disadvantage

#19
post #16
post #9

Reminds of me Kipling's poem whose meaning goes something like this: > The implication, of course, was that the Empire existed not for the benefit — economic or strategic or otherwise — of Britain, itself, but in order that primitive peoples, incapable of self-government, could, with British guidance, eventually become civilized (and Christianized) [1] The author is either writing some kind of bad sarcasm or simple f…

Clearly this article was written tongue in cheek. Perhaps that was lost on you.

It was not clear to me.

Re: The Japanese language puts students at a disadvantage

#20
post #18
post #15

So, umm, is nobody else going to call this racist? > Every bookstore, magazine stand, and school, has a significant portion of its bookshelves packed with comic books. Why? It’s generous, and a bit dismissive, to say that Japanese folks simply love “cute” things. It’s probably truer to note that a significant segment of the population isn’t accustomed to reading, or thinking, at an adult level. > Kids in Spain are re…

No, because it is not racist. The author has lived in Japan and studied Japanese for a long time. If you read some of his other posts for context you will see that he deeply admires and loves the Japanese people and their culture. This article appears to me to be a cathartic rant about Japanese being so difficult to learn that even many Japanese don't master their own language. I lived in Japan for about 3 years and…

Reminds me of the "I have a black friend" argument.

>"It’s probably truer to note that a significant segment of the population isn’t accustomed to reading, or thinking, at an adult level"

This claim is ridiculous. There is no way you can construe this as anything other than racist.

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