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I Don’t Care How Well You Code, Understand Your Compensation

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Re: I Don’t Care How Well You Code, Understand Your Compensation

#221

Post by codingdave »

jfdk wrote: post #136
scandox wrote: post #127

People who care about money will always have trouble understanding people that don't care about money - and vice-versa. (Obviously, the context here is a milieu in which everybody has enough for basic needs.) It's all about head space. Caring about money is quite a binary thing: once you engage with it, it's a huge commitment - intellectually and emotionally. People who don't care about money understand that they're…

I think this largely depends on how much money you are chasing and your aspirations. I care about money not because I want to have lots of things but because I want the freedom to work on my own ideas (without selling my soul to a VC). A certain amount of money early in life can greatly change your trajectory, for better or for worse. It just takes discipline.

That still needs to be balanced, though. As you get older, you'll lose time to other things. You may get sick, injured, or die. There is no guarantee that you will have a "later".

So find the balance - live enough to be happy with today, but work enough to be prepared for tomorrow.

Re: I Don’t Care How Well You Code, Understand Your Compensation

#222

Post by cloudjacker »

scandox wrote: post #127

People who care about money will always have trouble understanding people that don't care about money - and vice-versa. (Obviously, the context here is a milieu in which everybody has enough for basic needs.) It's all about head space. Caring about money is quite a binary thing: once you engage with it, it's a huge commitment - intellectually and emotionally. People who don't care about money understand that they're…

Many people were raised under a stigma of any conversation of money, and any self directed acquisition of it being sketchy

So they get taken advantage of by people that don't have that stigma

Re: I Don’t Care How Well You Code, Understand Your Compensation

#224

Post by ditonal »

nilkn wrote: post #160
flexie wrote: post #56

I think it's mostly supply and demand, timing and where you live. But those are the factors we rarely talk about. Instead, people complain they are not compensated enough relative to the importance of their work, their intelligence, the hours put in, their title or the length of their education or the risk they take. If people were paid according to the importance of their jobs, I would argue that plumbers, sewage wo…

I think there's truth here, but I also think programmers routinely underestimate the quality and compensation of other careers that they think are "below" them. For instance, you did it in this very post. Do you really think that all high school teachers are locked into making $40k for life? Here where I live (a large city, but also a pretty affordable one), teachers start at ~$55k in base salary, get a whole range o…

Especially true for nurses. Very tough job, but there's more money in it than many realize. My friend who already does well for himself is now going to do 1 more year of school to get a CRNA and says he'll likely make 160k in Miami or 220k in SF. Yet a co-worker asked "how can nurses survive here?" SF nurse salaries are public and you can see they can out earn most engineers esp via overtime (which lots of engineers work uncompensated). Still, nursing is a very tough job and can have a low status stigma.

Re: I Don’t Care How Well You Code, Understand Your Compensation

#225

Post by GFischer »

hiram112 wrote: post #101

This is a good article, and the same thing could be said with regard to offshoring, H1Bs, etc. Very profitable companies have gotten away for years with the tired argument of not enough talent. It is easy for engineers to fall for the line, since it pushes our egos in the right way: only really talented people can do what we do. The truth is, tech companies are spoiled. They all want the top 5%, but don't want to pay…

I take offense with " the bottom 50% for a discount via H1B indentured servants."

There's probably a mix of talent in H1B visa workers, but I know several and they're among the top talent in the U.S. Some H1B visa holders have gone on to found multibillion-dollar companies.

I don't live in the U.S. and don't face H1B visa competition (we do have Venezuelan and Cuban and Spanish engineers coming here to Uruguay so something similar), but it shouldn't be seen as so black-and-white. They can help grow the pie, they're not out to take a slice of the pie from native-born engineers. Maybe you should help them negotiate better rates, or a better visa that allows them to do so.

Re: I Don’t Care How Well You Code, Understand Your Compensation

#226

Post by flexie »

dpeterson wrote: post #218
flexie wrote: post #56

I think it's mostly supply and demand, timing and where you live. But those are the factors we rarely talk about. Instead, people complain they are not compensated enough relative to the importance of their work, their intelligence, the hours put in, their title or the length of their education or the risk they take. If people were paid according to the importance of their jobs, I would argue that plumbers, sewage wo…

Can I ask, are you a programmer? My guess is you are not. If you were you would understand the real physical strain and mental toll it takes to be good. If you want to excel, it is a never-ending battle to stay current and there is little to no reward for experience (even though it matters a great deal and must be accomplished on and off the clock). There is limited time to make money before you either burn out or ar…

I am not. Programming is just a hobby and I am not very good at it. I am a lawyer, and my comments would apply to law as well (except that the barrier to entry is a bit higher since regulation forces people to go through law school). Your comments about physical strain, mental toll, risk of burning out etc. describe my field well, though. And I doubt salaries for lawyers and programmers are that different anymore.

Re: I Don’t Care How Well You Code, Understand Your Compensation

#227

Post by nilkn »

Xylakant wrote: post #216
sokoloff wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both my parents were teachers. While there was some summer work, in no way was it nearly as intense as the school year. The mere fact that many do take summer jobs is proof of that, IMO.

> The mere fact that many do take summer jobs is proof of that, IMO. Or it's a proof that they need the money.

It's only proof that they desire more money or can find a use for more money. "Need" is an overloaded term. I know developers with six figure salaries who feel like they "need" more money and occasionally do contract work on the side as a result.

Re: I Don’t Care How Well You Code, Understand Your Compensation

#228

Post by forgetsusername »

jondubois wrote: post #53

Finance is evil. Day trading, investment banking, venture capital; they don't produce anything for society, they just sit at the intersection of various people, companies and industries and they capture big chunks of the money that flows between them - They rely on information asymmetry and market manipulation to do so; but 'information asymmetry' is just a euphemism for 'deception'. Even startups which are doing wel…

>Even startups which are doing well and generate profit tend to go on to raise money from VCs - This sounds ridiculous

So how does one expand a profitable business? Save up those earnings until you can buy a factory outright? Good luck with that. Meanwhile, I'll be financing the cost and leaving you in the dust.

Re: I Don’t Care How Well You Code, Understand Your Compensation

#229

Post by dpeterson »

flexie wrote: post #226
dpeterson wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can I ask, are you a programmer? My guess is you are not. If you were you would understand the real physical strain and mental toll it takes to be good. If you want to excel, it is a never-ending battle to stay current and there is little to no reward for experience (even though it matters a great deal and must be accomplished on and off the clock). There is limited time to make money before you either burn out or ar…

I am not. Programming is just a hobby and I am not very good at it. I am a lawyer, and my comments would apply to law as well (except that the barrier to entry is a bit higher since regulation forces people to go through law school). Your comments about physical strain, mental toll, risk of burning out etc. describe my field well, though. And I doubt salaries for lawyers and programmers are that different anymore.

The difference being, the older you get the more you will be perceived an expert at law. Your experience ages like a fine wine. Experience in tech ages more like a ripe watermelon sitting in the sun. Your earning potential will only go up the longer you are a lawyer. That is not true for those that stay developers their entire career.

P.S. I also spent a great deal of time getting degrees. B.S. in computer science and a Master's in Software Engineering. It is often not required to get a job, but it is still a barrier for many openings.

Re: I Don’t Care How Well You Code, Understand Your Compensation

#230

Post by jackhack »

pc86 wrote: post #154
flexie wrote: post #56

I think it's mostly supply and demand, timing and where you live. But those are the factors we rarely talk about. Instead, people complain they are not compensated enough relative to the importance of their work, their intelligence, the hours put in, their title or the length of their education or the risk they take. If people were paid according to the importance of their jobs, I would argue that plumbers, sewage wo…

> [P]eople complain they are not compensated enough relative to the importance of their work, their intelligence, the hours put in, their title or the length of their education or the risk they take. Most developers would be wise to understand that with few exceptions, none of these things have anything to do with your compensation. Your compensation is based almost entirely on some amorphous combination of: A) Suppl…

H) Age

It is a common belief (especially among startups) is that developers have a "shelf life."

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