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I Don’t Care How Well You Code, Understand Your Compensation

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Re: I Don’t Care How Well You Code, Understand Your Compensation

#211

Post by ryandrake »

20yrs_no_equity wrote: post #20

So, I've been working for startups for a long time. Finally I've reached two "rules"- - Be a founder - Restricted Stock Units or Preferred Shares are the only way to go. Options are way slanted against employees. If you have a market value of $150k and you take $80k in salary, you're giving up $70k of real money each year. The value of your options in most situations that work out well (Eg: base hits) are going to be…

I think a main take-away can be: If you're interviewing for a start-up and the founder is cagey about the company's financials, their investors' stakes, their liquidation preference, overall what the cap table looks like, the number of shares outstanding, etc. that should be a big red flag.

Re: I Don’t Care How Well You Code, Understand Your Compensation

#212

Post by n72 »

pc86 wrote: post #154
flexie wrote: post #56

I think it's mostly supply and demand, timing and where you live. But those are the factors we rarely talk about. Instead, people complain they are not compensated enough relative to the importance of their work, their intelligence, the hours put in, their title or the length of their education or the risk they take. If people were paid according to the importance of their jobs, I would argue that plumbers, sewage wo…

> [P]eople complain they are not compensated enough relative to the importance of their work, their intelligence, the hours put in, their title or the length of their education or the risk they take. Most developers would be wise to understand that with few exceptions, none of these things have anything to do with your compensation. Your compensation is based almost entirely on some amorphous combination of: A) Suppl…

Perhaps patronage covers this, but I would put skill at office politics/ass kissing high on the list.

Re: I Don’t Care How Well You Code, Understand Your Compensation

#213

Post by majewsky »

ryandrake wrote: post #180
colanderman wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, no teacher I have ever known has stopped working at 3:20 PM. Grading and planning often go far into the evening.

Additionally, no teacher I have ever known has had the summer off. Summer is when they do catch-up work, lesson planning, etc., the technical debt payback of the teaching world. (source: three parents/step-parents were school teachers)

Or if you're in Germany, many teachers are running on temporary contracts that always last for the school year, so they will be receiving unemployment benefits during the summer break, and (hopefully!) get a new contract for the next school year.

It's a great way to shuffle cost from one government budget (education) to another one (unemployment benefits), and also a convenient way to get rid of annoying parts of the staff.

Re: I Don’t Care How Well You Code, Understand Your Compensation

#214

Post by edwhitesell »

ma2rten wrote: post #196
colanderman wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, no teacher I have ever known has stopped working at 3:20 PM. Grading and planning often go far into the evening.

Actually according to http://transparentcalifornia.com/ my daughter's elementary school teacher makes around 130k in a public school.

There are lots of places where teachers easily make 80k or more. Most states also drive additional salary requirements based on the level of education the teacher has. Also, the number of years teaching (though sometimes tied to the number of years in the specific school system/district) include increases too.

Source: a friend who taught elementary school in the Boston area.

Re: I Don’t Care How Well You Code, Understand Your Compensation

#215

Post by kspaans »

nibnib wrote: post #2

I don't understand most of the financial terms used in this article. Where do I start?

This showed up on HN last year: https://github.com/jlevy/og-equity-compensation

It's got advice on where to start, common gotchas to look out for (in the US), and definitions of everything.

Re: I Don’t Care How Well You Code, Understand Your Compensation

#216

Post by Xylakant »

sokoloff wrote: post #206
fencepost wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, they have 2 months between school years in which they are not at the front of a classroom. For a lot of teachers that's time used for continuing education, for prep for the upcoming school year, etc. - or for a summer job.

Both my parents were teachers. While there was some summer work, in no way was it nearly as intense as the school year. The mere fact that many do take summer jobs is proof of that, IMO.

> The mere fact that many do take summer jobs is proof of that, IMO.

Or it's a proof that they need the money.

Re: I Don’t Care How Well You Code, Understand Your Compensation

#217

Post by flexie »

nilkn wrote: post #160
flexie wrote: post #56

I think it's mostly supply and demand, timing and where you live. But those are the factors we rarely talk about. Instead, people complain they are not compensated enough relative to the importance of their work, their intelligence, the hours put in, their title or the length of their education or the risk they take. If people were paid according to the importance of their jobs, I would argue that plumbers, sewage wo…

I think there's truth here, but I also think programmers routinely underestimate the quality and compensation of other careers that they think are "below" them. For instance, you did it in this very post. Do you really think that all high school teachers are locked into making $40k for life? Here where I live (a large city, but also a pretty affordable one), teachers start at ~$55k in base salary, get a whole range o…

Not all, but the one in my example did, and many do: http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=High_School_Teacher/...

I am sure that by getting a master's degree, teaching in private schools, being in certain states or cities, teaching classes that are in great demand, etc., teachers can reach higher salaries. But I think we can agree that by becoming teachers in the first place, they pretty much accepted the risk of never earning much.

Likewise, not all programmers in start-ups earn 40k, which is what the example was about.

Re: I Don’t Care How Well You Code, Understand Your Compensation

#218

Post by dpeterson »

flexie wrote: post #56

I think it's mostly supply and demand, timing and where you live. But those are the factors we rarely talk about. Instead, people complain they are not compensated enough relative to the importance of their work, their intelligence, the hours put in, their title or the length of their education or the risk they take. If people were paid according to the importance of their jobs, I would argue that plumbers, sewage wo…

Can I ask, are you a programmer? My guess is you are not. If you were you would understand the real physical strain and mental toll it takes to be good. If you want to excel, it is a never-ending battle to stay current and there is little to no reward for experience (even though it matters a great deal and must be accomplished on and off the clock). There is limited time to make money before you either burn out or are perceived to be too old to stay relevant. So, yes, there is a lot of risk putting the best earning years into companies that promise one thing and deliver another.

Re: I Don’t Care How Well You Code, Understand Your Compensation

#219

Post by nilkn »

fencepost wrote: post #200
LanceH wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, no teacher I've ever known as received only 10 day vacation and 10 holidays. They have over 20 days of holidays built in during the school year and a legitimate two months off between years.

No, they have 2 months between school years in which they are not at the front of a classroom. For a lot of teachers that's time used for continuing education, for prep for the upcoming school year, etc. - or for a summer job.

(I'm the one who made the original reply about teachers.)

My comment was based on observations of my SO, who is a high school biology teacher. She legitimately does not have to work at all for the great majority of the summer if she doesn't want to. I understand this may vary a lot by school district and location, and of course even if you don't have to work over the summer there are still benefits to doing so.

Re: I Don’t Care How Well You Code, Understand Your Compensation

#220

Post by jazzyk »

ryandrake wrote: post #192
jazzyk wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being a policeman can be a tough, dangerous job. But I don't think they are underpaid, at least not in Massachusetts - Police Trooper, 1st class can make $130K-$180K. They also get generous pensions (state employees).

Yea, top ones. This sounds like the same old argument: "A handful of top programmers at Google make $300k! Therefore programmers in general make a lot."

There are ~1800 police officers (out of 3185 listed in the DB) in MA alone who make > $100K [1]. Not too shabby either.

Also, to make $300K at Google you have to be a genius, to make $200K as a State Trooper, no college degree is required, only some seniority and overtime.

[1] http://www.masslive.com/politics/index.ssf/2015/03/massachus...

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