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I Don’t Care How Well You Code, Understand Your Compensation

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Re: I Don’t Care How Well You Code, Understand Your Compensation

#141

Post by ysavir »

flexie wrote: post #56

I think it's mostly supply and demand, timing and where you live. But those are the factors we rarely talk about. Instead, people complain they are not compensated enough relative to the importance of their work, their intelligence, the hours put in, their title or the length of their education or the risk they take. If people were paid according to the importance of their jobs, I would argue that plumbers, sewage wo…

Well said, but I think you missed the point of the article.

The article itself isn't even about programmers, really (even if the author didn't recognize it). It applies to all employees and founders of start ups, whether they are programmers, designers, or even just a person with an idea but no technical expertise

It's not about how much you make or how much is fair. It's about properly understanding what your compensation is. The soul of the article is in the complexity of non-salary compensations, and how many surprises and pitfalls lurk in the small text, that most non-finance people don't even notice is there. And the author is reminding us to learn about those surprises and pitfalls, so that when the anticipated pay-day comes, our expectations are met properly.

And it's good advice.

Re: I Don’t Care How Well You Code, Understand Your Compensation

#142

Post by Androider »

Startups give stock options because they feel they have to in order to attract talent. The startups can't compete with Google/Apple/Microsoft when it comes to the base salary, they simply don't have the cash or revenues to do so yet.

But what if the startups offered something else that most of the big companies can't or won't? How about 100% remote work, real work life balance (less than 40h weeks), 4+ weeks of vacation out the gate, 4 day weeks during summer (like Basecamp) etc. Basically, given conflicting choices, always optimize towards what makes a great place to work. Would that attract top talent (not necessarily only the SV talent)? What if there were no stock options involved at all, would that make you less psychologically invested in the company?

Re: I Don’t Care How Well You Code, Understand Your Compensation

#143

Post by bwoj »

rimantas wrote: post #114
flexie wrote: post #56

I think it's mostly supply and demand, timing and where you live. But those are the factors we rarely talk about. Instead, people complain they are not compensated enough relative to the importance of their work, their intelligence, the hours put in, their title or the length of their education or the risk they take. If people were paid according to the importance of their jobs, I would argue that plumbers, sewage wo…

Not sure aniut the low barrier to entry. Take 1000 programmers, how many can be made into decent plumbers in 6 months? Now take 1000 plumbers, how many can be made ibto decent programmers in 6 months? Also, I am nit aware how often tevhnology materials and tooling changes for plumbers (I guess some of these spsn generations), but I am aware that platform I have been working full time for 4 years did not exist 8 years…

The barrier to entry in the trades isn't the difficulty of the work. If you trained 1000 programmers for six months, a good number of them would be competent, but none of them would be able to get licensed. Every single one of them would need to work as an apprentice to a licensed plumber as part of the licensing requirements.

On the flip side, all you need to do to get a job programming is an internet connection and the desire to learn it. Anyone can teach themselves and if you can code enough BS on a whiteboard, somebody will hire you.

Re: I Don’t Care How Well You Code, Understand Your Compensation

#144

Post by jazzyk »

jzwinck wrote: post #131
jazzyk wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I would argue that plumbers, sewage workers and farmers should be paid higher than programmers. Self-employed plumbers are paid higher than programmers. Every plumber I reached out to quoted $130/hr and they are all booked for weeks in advance.

Plumbers have to spend unbillable time driving from place to place. $130 per hour is great but if each job takes 1-2 hours it could magically halve. Ever walk into a half empty restaurant and get turned away because they're fully booked?

The ones I talked to were not interested in taking on projects further than a 10-15 mins drive. Please note that plumbers also add markups on the products they install (water heaters, etc) and charge higher rates for weekend/after hours emergencies. Nothing wrong with it, they just take advantage of the good market.

Not picking on plumbers, just pointing out that jobs in the software industry are not as plum as they seem to some posters here, compared to other jobs.

Re: I Don’t Care How Well You Code, Understand Your Compensation

#145

Post by Psychoticmormon »

jondubois wrote: post #53

Finance is evil. Day trading, investment banking, venture capital; they don't produce anything for society, they just sit at the intersection of various people, companies and industries and they capture big chunks of the money that flows between them - They rely on information asymmetry and market manipulation to do so; but 'information asymmetry' is just a euphemism for 'deception'. Even startups which are doing wel…

Capital and finance isn't evil. It is a tool, a unified currency to allocate resources. A tool is apathetic to the motivation of the hand that wields it.

Machines for logging = capital

labor = capital

software = capital.

A VCs business model is that of investing and profit. It's not altruistic, its a business. As such it is interested in profit. There are other methods to raise capital for a business but a VC may be a better option.

Re: I Don’t Care How Well You Code, Understand Your Compensation

#148

Post by gaius »

dagw wrote: post #134
gaius wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not true. Plumbers work reasonable hours, are paid overtime, don't have to deal with ageism, their skills stay relevant regardless of fashion trends, and their jobs will never be offshored.

and their jobs will never be offshored Don't know about the US, but in much of Europe plumbing has definitely been 'offshored' in the sense that much of the work is done by non-locals brought in short term.

Everyone "learning to code" instead is probably why! If I were giving career advice to any young person now, I would definitely tell them plumbing or a similar trade. As we say in Yorkshire "where there's muck there's brass".

Re: I Don’t Care How Well You Code, Understand Your Compensation

#149

Post by ccallebs »

pkolaczk wrote: post #121
rimantas wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure aniut the low barrier to entry. Take 1000 programmers, how many can be made into decent plumbers in 6 months? Now take 1000 plumbers, how many can be made ibto decent programmers in 6 months? Also, I am nit aware how often tevhnology materials and tooling changes for plumbers (I guess some of these spsn generations), but I am aware that platform I have been working full time for 4 years did not exist 8 years…

Most programmers would be able to do usual plumbing stuff like connecting the sink or dishwasher to water pipes with almost no prior learning, just by looking how things are done, maybe asking a few basic questions at the plumbing supplies store, and reading the attached instructions. These things are no rocket-science really. Sure, an experienced plumber would do all of these things much faster and probably better,…

Perhaps for simple plumbing jobs (like the ones you mention). However, things are rarely so easy once you start actually working. Like with most things, being skilled at plumbing is being able to handle the edge cases. And trust me, plumbing is not fault tolerant. :)

Re: I Don’t Care How Well You Code, Understand Your Compensation

#150

Post by cm2187 »

flexie wrote: post #56

I think it's mostly supply and demand, timing and where you live. But those are the factors we rarely talk about. Instead, people complain they are not compensated enough relative to the importance of their work, their intelligence, the hours put in, their title or the length of their education or the risk they take. If people were paid according to the importance of their jobs, I would argue that plumbers, sewage wo…

The point of the article is not so much about what should be the right level of compensation for technical people but rather the issue of technical people not bothering to understand the terms of the financial agreements they get into.

If they did examine the terms, as you said supply and demand would ensure the terms are fair.

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