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Emperor Akihito of Japan Raises Possibility of Leaving Throne

nytimes.com

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Re: Emperor Akihito of Japan Raises Possibility of Leaving Throne

#131

Post by VLM »

moogly wrote: post #4

I propose a deal: Let the man rest in exchange for the abolishment of the constitutional monarchy. Symbolic or not, it's outmoded and incongruent with modern egalitarian society. The list of constitutional monarchies is rather embarrassingly long (37 countries).

An egalitarian society sounds interesting; someone should try it.

I can respect the honesty of a monarchy. We have a fake egalitarian society where most of our leaders must either be Bush, Clinton, Roosevelt, Kennedy, or be closely related by marriage. Not to mention the behind the scenes families that control and pay for it all. Its disrespectful to the concept of democracy to view Hillaries coronation party as anything other than a hereditary monarchy ceremony. If it were not for Trump (and thank God for Trump), Jeb's coronation party would have been held the week prior. In that way I can respect a monarchy much more than a fake, false democracy. Someone in the English queen's family will rule after her; thank you for at least being honest about it.

Re: Emperor Akihito of Japan Raises Possibility of Leaving Throne

#132

Post by talideon »

twblalock wrote: post #22
moogly wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plenty of nations have successfully abolished constitutional monarchy in the past couple of hundred years. The role and political power of the head of state (be it Prime Minister/Chancellor or President, or a combination — doesn't matter) should be well-defined in the constutition (which of course needs changing). I don't really see any loopholes here... I find that argument to be a red herring. As you say, in some c…

On the other hand, consider the example of France. The fourth republic had a symbolic president, and the fifth republic has a very powerful president, because DeGaulle demanded executive power as a condition of assuming the presidency during the Algerian crisis of the late 1950s. That's why the fourth republic ended and the fifth republic began -- DeGaulle had a new constitution written. The situation in Japan is pre…

> The fourth republic had a symbolic president, and the fifth republic has a very powerful president, because DeGaulle demanded executive power as a condition of assuming the presidency during the Algerian crisis of the late 1950s. That's why the fourth republic ended and the fifth republic began -- DeGaulle had a new constitution written.

It's a bit more complicated than that, to be fair. A big part of de Gaulle's motivation for the semi-presiential system of the Fifth Republic was due to the instability of the parliamentary system of the Third and Fourth Republics. Whatever else you might say about de Gaulle, the Fifth Republic has been remarkably stable and orderly compared to the regimes that preceded it after the revolution.

Re: Emperor Akihito of Japan Raises Possibility of Leaving Throne

#133

Post by [deleted] »

robin_reala wrote: post #123
ptaipale wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the pope can actually make decisions with consequences, but as Stalin put it, "The Pope? How many divisions has he got?" Well, he doesn't have any, the power comes through his symbolic position.

He’s got one army: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_Guard#Pontifical_Swiss_G...

[deleted]

Re: Emperor Akihito of Japan Raises Possibility of Leaving Throne

#134

Post by talideon »

cmdkeen wrote: post #68
moogly wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As you yourself say, the situation in Japan is pretty stable. The events in France you mention was during wartime, in the lead-up to what could be called "colonial collapse". Hardly comparable. It matters because a hereditary head of state position (actually, any governmental/establishmentarian position) is a terrible symbol in what should be an egalitarian society, no matter if you have political power or not. I don…

Except stability can be used to breed stability. France being on the Fifth Republic makes it considerably easier to argue for a Sixth Republic, and with Marine Le Pen doing rather well in the polls that isn't necessarily a good idea. Traditions have their place in that they become ingrained within the populace and considerably harder to shift.

Not really: people can point at the stability of the Fifth Republic and compare it against the previous regimes, which were quite the opposite. That creates a lot of inertia against scrapping a system of Republican government that currently fundamentally still works.

Re: Emperor Akihito of Japan Raises Possibility of Leaving Throne

#135

Post by BigDaddyD »

VLM wrote: post #131
moogly wrote: post #4

I propose a deal: Let the man rest in exchange for the abolishment of the constitutional monarchy. Symbolic or not, it's outmoded and incongruent with modern egalitarian society. The list of constitutional monarchies is rather embarrassingly long (37 countries).

An egalitarian society sounds interesting; someone should try it. I can respect the honesty of a monarchy. We have a fake egalitarian society where most of our leaders must either be Bush, Clinton, Roosevelt, Kennedy, or be closely related by marriage. Not to mention the behind the scenes families that control and pay for it all. Its disrespectful to the concept of democracy to view Hillaries coronation party as anyt…

The big thing you're missing is how the separation of powers in the US prevents what you describe as a "monarchy" from ruling as a monarchy. Besides in your own comment you admit that Trump goes against this idea. We don't have even close to a monarchial society.

Re: Emperor Akihito of Japan Raises Possibility of Leaving Throne

#136

Post by BigDaddyD »

Houshalter wrote: post #87
keerthiko wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you operating from the premise that a non-monarchy is strictly and uniformly superior? Or that figurehead monarchs are bad? With the former I beg to differ, having lived in the Middle East for a significant portion of my life. With the latter, well, maybe, it's a marginal cost to keep many traditionalists and culturally conservative members of a very proud people sated. Strangely (to me) people sing the praises o…

The idea that monarchies are The Worst is meme that has permeated Western culture. Because of a long history of fighting against them. I don't think they are the worst, but they definitely have problems. They tend to be very conservative. They tend to heavily favor the upper class. They tend to be more likely to start and maintain terrible wars. And the system encourages civil wars. And the lack of selection means th…

But you would admit that Democracy and Republics are far superior in almost every way?

Re: Emperor Akihito of Japan Raises Possibility of Leaving Throne

#137

Post by BigDaddyD »

systemtest wrote: post #9
moogly wrote: post #4

I propose a deal: Let the man rest in exchange for the abolishment of the constitutional monarchy. Symbolic or not, it's outmoded and incongruent with modern egalitarian society. The list of constitutional monarchies is rather embarrassingly long (37 countries).

Nothing wrong with a constitutional monarchy. You get all the benefits from democratically chosen representatives without the downside of the 4-year moodswings. The monarch will always choose what is best for the country instead of what is best for the currently ruling party. It looks at long-term vision instead of just the 4-year term. It takes care of continuity instead of the "this will not be my problem in 6 mont…

AKA the will of the people. It amazes me that after all the evil we have seen come out of authoritarian rule we still get people bashing democracy.

Re: Emperor Akihito of Japan Raises Possibility of Leaving Throne

#138

Post by 77pt77 »

ezoe wrote: post #81
moogly wrote: post #4

I propose a deal: Let the man rest in exchange for the abolishment of the constitutional monarchy. Symbolic or not, it's outmoded and incongruent with modern egalitarian society. The list of constitutional monarchies is rather embarrassingly long (37 countries).

The emperor was forbidden to perform any political activities by constitution. Simply stating his wish to abdicate is considered a political activities, so the emperor cannot even say that. This time, he implies he wish to abdicate by saying "When the emperor dies, Japanese economy will face a serious shock, which I want to prevent it", which implies in the time of his death(I don't know the polite way of saying die…

> I don't know the polite way of saying die in English, in Japanese, we have a special polite word for the emperor's death

In Osaka I saw the expression, "emperor Hirohito succumbed". I found the euphemism quite entertaining at the time.

Re: Emperor Akihito of Japan Raises Possibility of Leaving Throne

#139

Post by eloisant »

ezoe wrote: post #81
moogly wrote: post #4

I propose a deal: Let the man rest in exchange for the abolishment of the constitutional monarchy. Symbolic or not, it's outmoded and incongruent with modern egalitarian society. The list of constitutional monarchies is rather embarrassingly long (37 countries).

The emperor was forbidden to perform any political activities by constitution. Simply stating his wish to abdicate is considered a political activities, so the emperor cannot even say that. This time, he implies he wish to abdicate by saying "When the emperor dies, Japanese economy will face a serious shock, which I want to prevent it", which implies in the time of his death(I don't know the polite way of saying die…

Well it's not that stating his wish to abdicate is political, but he can't legally abdicate. He's Emperor until his death unless the law is changed to allow it.

And asking for a change in the law, well THAT is clearly political.

Re: Emperor Akihito of Japan Raises Possibility of Leaving Throne

#140

Post by sangnoir »

hristov wrote: post #53

One interesting factoid that the new york times did not mention is that while it was common for emperors to resign before the meiji restoration, a lot of those resignations probably were not voluntary. The Japanese emperors are the longest reigning royal dynasty in the world, having reigned for the entire known history of the nation. But perhaps heir secret is that they did not have much power most of the time. Durin…

> One interesting factoid that the new york times did not mention is that while it was common for emperors to resign before the meiji restoration

It's right there in the article, you might have missed it (or it was added after you read it): “Historically, it was extremely common for emperors to abdicate,” said Takeshi Hara, an authority on the imperial family at the Open University of Japan. More than half of Japan’s monarchs have vacated the throne, often for quiet retirement at Buddhist monasteries. Only in the 19th century, when Japan’s leaders created the cult of emperor worship, did quitting become impossible.

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