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The 39th Root of 92

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41–50 of 124 posts

Re: The 39th Root of 92

#41
post #3

I continue to be baffled by the arcane units in the US. This uses a measure on the completely wrong abstraction level. An accidental production process now defines a wire unit instead the end result the consumer/engineer/technician wants to know (mm^2 or inch^2 oh no no it's pica^2 ?). There must be some sociological phenomenon going on that keeps the US from adopting modern units. Maybe can't admit a shortcoming and…

The derivation isn't all that interesting; the use is. Everybody who cares already knows what 12 ga. wire is.

People in general don't give a [ expletive deleted ] about the source code; they just want the answer.

Re: The 39th Root of 92

#42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Appelbaum: So the people blocking adoption of the metric system weren't backward-looking traditionalists, but cutting-edge industrialists? Mihm: That's correct. While the anti-metric forces included outright cranks, including people who believed that the inch was a God-given unit of measurement, the most sophisticated and powerful opponents of the metric system were anything but cranks. They were engineers who built…

So where to 3/8" and 5/16" threads play into this? They aren't easily divided by 2, or multiplied by 2 to make a larger thread.

3/8 is half between 1/4 and 1/2. 5/16 is half between 4/8 ( 1/2 ) and 3/8.

Re: The 39th Root of 92

#43
post #38
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you have never wired a house for electrical, then sure, the units seem arbitrary. But if you do, then the units seem very comfortable. 12ga for most typical 20a circuits, 14ga for light, 10ga or thicker for some heavy-duty circuits. Hey boss, we seem to be all out of 3.31mm^2 romex, all I got left is 2.08mm^2. And why did you mention cross-sectional area? Why not radius? or diameter? Or better yet, circumference?…

awg14 or whatever isn't exactly the perfect gauge for whatever application it is used for. It is somewhat arbitrary. A nice metric system of gauges would have 2 mm, 2.5 mm, 3 mm, etc. and there would be still be a nice round number gauge for each application.

For some value of "nice round number". What really matters with most wires is the current carrying capacity, which largely depends on the cross-sectional area, not the diameter. Equally-spaced diameters don't give you equally-spaced areas.

Re: The 39th Root of 92

#44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So where to 3/8" and 5/16" threads play into this? They aren't easily divided by 2, or multiplied by 2 to make a larger thread.

3/8 is half between 1/4 and 1/2. 5/16 is half between 4/8 ( 1/2 ) and 3/8.

And going the other way, 2 * 3/8 = 3/4, and 2 * 5/16 = 5/8, both of which are also standard sizes.

Re: The 39th Root of 92

#45
post #17
post #3

I continue to be baffled by the arcane units in the US. This uses a measure on the completely wrong abstraction level. An accidental production process now defines a wire unit instead the end result the consumer/engineer/technician wants to know (mm^2 or inch^2 oh no no it's pica^2 ?). There must be some sociological phenomenon going on that keeps the US from adopting modern units. Maybe can't admit a shortcoming and…

The thing that always gets me about this is how incomplete it is (at least in most people's experience) What is the unit of mass smaller than an Ounce? Some people know that this is a Grain (7,000 in a pound, which means the awfully convenient division of 437.5 per oz - assuming avoirdupois of course) What if anything is smaller than an inch? Power of two fractions until 1/64 then "thous" - 15.625 thous in 1/64" - al…

[deleted]

Re: The 39th Root of 92

#46
post #17
post #3

I continue to be baffled by the arcane units in the US. This uses a measure on the completely wrong abstraction level. An accidental production process now defines a wire unit instead the end result the consumer/engineer/technician wants to know (mm^2 or inch^2 oh no no it's pica^2 ?). There must be some sociological phenomenon going on that keeps the US from adopting modern units. Maybe can't admit a shortcoming and…

The thing that always gets me about this is how incomplete it is (at least in most people's experience) What is the unit of mass smaller than an Ounce? Some people know that this is a Grain (7,000 in a pound, which means the awfully convenient division of 437.5 per oz - assuming avoirdupois of course) What if anything is smaller than an inch? Power of two fractions until 1/64 then "thous" - 15.625 thous in 1/64" - al…

Most people never use units smaller than can be accounted for by fractional inches and ounces in their daily lives, and never did. The only people who ever used grains were pharmacists, jewelers, and the like. The only people who ever had to resort to thous were precision machinists and the like.

Re: The 39th Root of 92

#47
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

awg14 or whatever isn't exactly the perfect gauge for whatever application it is used for. It is somewhat arbitrary. A nice metric system of gauges would have 2 mm, 2.5 mm, 3 mm, etc. and there would be still be a nice round number gauge for each application.

For some value of "nice round number". What really matters with most wires is the current carrying capacity, which largely depends on the cross-sectional area , not the diameter. Equally-spaced diameters don't give you equally-spaced areas.

If you have an industrial production process which is going to produce a set number of wire sizes, and you want them to be maximally useful for a wide variety of applications, you want a logarithmic scale.

Responding to commenter e2e8: Using 2mm, 3mm, etc. would be substantially less functional.

Once you have a log scale, it hardly matters whether you measure diameter or area, that’s just a constant factor.

In the ideal case, the log scale would have a slightly easier to compute definition for the dilation at each step than the 39th root of 92 (~1.1229).

Perhaps they could use the 6th root of 2 instead (~1.1224). Then every 6 steps you’d get a factor of two. Size 0 could be defined as 1mm diameter (or size 0 could be 1 millimeter squared cross sectional area, with 3rd root of 2 as the step each time).

In practice if you’re wiring a house, it doesn’t much matter.

* * *

One of the reasons the metric system built on a base ten number system is so frustrating for practical purposes is that powers of ten are entirely arbitrary and indivisible, and tenth roots of ten or numbers expressed in terms of natural logarithms are even worse. We’d be much better off with a general-purpose base twelve number system, plus log scales uniformly designed around the twelfth root of 2. [Western music scale, ISO paper sizes, etc. would fit right in.]

Re: The 39th Root of 92

#48
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just like with software, backwards compatibility is a double-edged sword. You can look at almost any land assignment, building or commercial sale ever in the history of the United States and be able to compare / modify / extend it without any conversions. If my great-great-grandfather claimed 160 acres from the Homestead Act, any documentation from that time is just as easily understood today without any conversions.…

The problem with your argument is that most other countries have converted to metric without any issues regarding the fact that your land used to be 1000 acres and is now 404 Ha.

and for some of these countries, their official records can even be older than the 250 years you'll find in the US.

Re: The 39th Root of 92

#49
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who says people should collectively forget what an inch is? Every other country made unit conversions. The people will use old units for some time to buy cheese at the counter and all is well.

Yeah, right up until your car lease contract limits you to 2000 Swedish Miles per year. (Note, these are about 6x longer than American miles). Or you buy fruit at the supermarket in Indonesia in ounces and kg (an ounce is an hg).

I guess anyone who knows what Swedish mil is will specify kilometres instead.

I cannot remember a single time I have seen a contract specifying mil instead of km.

("Mil" == 10km == 10 000m is used here as well only not in formal or scientific contexts that I can think of but maybe that is a difference between Sweden and here.)

Re: The 39th Root of 92

#50
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you considered how much it would cost to change units, and how absolutely little would be gained?

Maybe can be re-framed as how much has been lost? If the change is performed, the time gained by absolutely everyone making use of more saner unit system could offset the cost? maybe just by avoiding errors? This are ideas that has to be transformed in order to be shared with mostly everyone else. Shameful confession, I do use pounds for weight.

more saner unit system

The general idea in most of these arguments is that "more sane" is a very hard thing to define. There are cases for which metric is more useful. There are cases where it's less useful. Yet the argument is almost never actually made that way; metric tends to be presented as an ideally perfect system not susceptible to even the most trifling criticism, and any case presented in which it's disadvantageous compared to an alternative is dismissed with an ad hominem attack implying the person making the case is just too much of a stupid American to grasp the heavenly best-in-all-possible-cases-for-all-people perfection of metric.

Truth is it's an arbitrary system optimized for a particular set of use cases. The traditional-ish units used in the US are a different arbitrary system, optimized for a different particular set of use cases.

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