Live data from Hacker News

The 39th Root of 92

bit-player.org

31–40 of 124 posts

Re: The 39th Root of 92

#31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assume that the Sumerians were observant enough to realize that there were still a few days missing, and that 360 was better because it was a more divisible number actually. The Sumerians did, in fact, periodically insert intercalary months in order to offset the difference, which suggests that this is in part close approximation and on the other part nice for application.

I feel like unit debates often result from a misunderstanding between sides of "is perfect the enemy of good?" I thought it suspicious that they would have miscounted the days, but you're right: it's so dang useful that it's worth a little error (with occasional corrections) for such convenience. Of course, at some point it becomes a huge pain and you buckle down and choose something just as arbitrary but easier to h…

How many kiloseconds will you spend working next week?

Even in metric-using countries, nobody uses it for time.

For actual applications of spherical trig though degree, minute, second makes a lot of sense, primarily because the earth rotates about one arc second every 4 minutes, and if you know this then you can do manual navigation via the stars and many other things.

However for many things I do use metric time, just not for the human aspect of it. For example, for one customer (admittedly in the sciences), we had to help them estimate how much hardware they needed for additional load. So you do the work in seconds because at that point the math is easiest, and convert to ratios following.

Re: The 39th Root of 92

#32
post #18
post #3

I continue to be baffled by the arcane units in the US. This uses a measure on the completely wrong abstraction level. An accidental production process now defines a wire unit instead the end result the consumer/engineer/technician wants to know (mm^2 or inch^2 oh no no it's pica^2 ?). There must be some sociological phenomenon going on that keeps the US from adopting modern units. Maybe can't admit a shortcoming and…

If you have never wired a house for electrical, then sure, the units seem arbitrary. But if you do, then the units seem very comfortable. 12ga for most typical 20a circuits, 14ga for light, 10ga or thicker for some heavy-duty circuits. Hey boss, we seem to be all out of 3.31mm^2 romex, all I got left is 2.08mm^2. And why did you mention cross-sectional area? Why not radius? or diameter? Or better yet, circumference?…

In New Zealand, I'm fairly sure that the standard is to use diameter to measure wire. It's something like 2 mm for a 10 Amp circuit.

Re: The 39th Root of 92

#33
post #16
post #3

I continue to be baffled by the arcane units in the US. This uses a measure on the completely wrong abstraction level. An accidental production process now defines a wire unit instead the end result the consumer/engineer/technician wants to know (mm^2 or inch^2 oh no no it's pica^2 ?). There must be some sociological phenomenon going on that keeps the US from adopting modern units. Maybe can't admit a shortcoming and…

> There must be some sociological phenomenon going on that keeps the US from adopting modern units. Maybe can't admit a shortcoming and fix it? There's a sociological phenomenon at play here all right... a deeply pathological form of envy that Freud called "denial of USA-number-one-ness."

Okay, I'll play devil's advocate here.

There's a huge (but not insurmountable) lock-in effect behind wire gauges. All the wire I can buy is sized in it. All the wire strippers, crimpers, pins, sockets, plugs, jacks, terminal strips, insert/removal tools and clamps I can buy are sized around the AWG standards. Bulkhead passages in ships and aircraft are sized for carrying certain numbers of wires of certain gauges in bundles. Tens of millions of engineering drawings specify wire sizes in AWG.

So why should we in the US change all of this? Just for the sake of being "modern"? I'll need a more persuasive argument than that.

Re: The 39th Root of 92

#34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the trick. In a sense, the units follow the application, and hence English units always feel a bit natural. They have a tendency to have integer multiples and simple fractions. And when I say natural, I don't mean elegant. They often tend to be thoroughly arbitrary. But they match the needs, which is usually reasonably pragmatic. For example, 360 degrees is ideal for simple in-head directional geometry, but ra…

One of the neat things about degrees and plane geometry is how regular polygons you can have without partial degrees. The number of sides depends on the divisiblity of 360 by the number of angles so: 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 9, 10, 12, 15, 18, 20, 30, and so forth. For angle measurement where you want a closed geometry figure at the end, degrees are extremely elegant, and 360 is 2^3x3^2x5

360 is arbitrary I hope you know. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degree_(angle)#History

Re: The 39th Root of 92

#35
post #13
post #3

I continue to be baffled by the arcane units in the US. This uses a measure on the completely wrong abstraction level. An accidental production process now defines a wire unit instead the end result the consumer/engineer/technician wants to know (mm^2 or inch^2 oh no no it's pica^2 ?). There must be some sociological phenomenon going on that keeps the US from adopting modern units. Maybe can't admit a shortcoming and…

Just like with software, backwards compatibility is a double-edged sword. You can look at almost any land assignment, building or commercial sale ever in the history of the United States and be able to compare / modify / extend it without any conversions. If my great-great-grandfather claimed 160 acres from the Homestead Act, any documentation from that time is just as easily understood today without any conversions.…

The problem with your argument is that most other countries have converted to metric without any issues regarding the fact that your land used to be 1000 acres and is now 404 Ha.

Re: The 39th Root of 92

#36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The English system of measure is based on offsets to make retooling factories easily done in house. It's very similar to metric paper sizes. Look into the history it's actually quite logical.

Appelbaum: So the people blocking adoption of the metric system weren't backward-looking traditionalists, but cutting-edge industrialists? Mihm: That's correct. While the anti-metric forces included outright cranks, including people who believed that the inch was a God-given unit of measurement, the most sophisticated and powerful opponents of the metric system were anything but cranks. They were engineers who built…

So where to 3/8" and 5/16" threads play into this? They aren't easily divided by 2, or multiplied by 2 to make a larger thread.

Re: The 39th Root of 92

#37
post #13
post #3

I continue to be baffled by the arcane units in the US. This uses a measure on the completely wrong abstraction level. An accidental production process now defines a wire unit instead the end result the consumer/engineer/technician wants to know (mm^2 or inch^2 oh no no it's pica^2 ?). There must be some sociological phenomenon going on that keeps the US from adopting modern units. Maybe can't admit a shortcoming and…

Just like with software, backwards compatibility is a double-edged sword. You can look at almost any land assignment, building or commercial sale ever in the history of the United States and be able to compare / modify / extend it without any conversions. If my great-great-grandfather claimed 160 acres from the Homestead Act, any documentation from that time is just as easily understood today without any conversions.…

As much as I hate the metric system myself, I don't think it's true that U.S. measuring culture is a self-consistent system that avoids unnecessary conversions.

For example the energy content of fossil fuels tends to be measured in BTU per (whatever), while electrical energy is measured in kilowatt hours. On the other hand, automobile engines are often rated in horsepower.

I find this sort of thing is ubiquitous in engineering. In metric-only countries, the situation is slightly less bad because that system provides somewhat fewer opportunities for mischief.

Re: The 39th Root of 92

#38
post #18
post #3

I continue to be baffled by the arcane units in the US. This uses a measure on the completely wrong abstraction level. An accidental production process now defines a wire unit instead the end result the consumer/engineer/technician wants to know (mm^2 or inch^2 oh no no it's pica^2 ?). There must be some sociological phenomenon going on that keeps the US from adopting modern units. Maybe can't admit a shortcoming and…

If you have never wired a house for electrical, then sure, the units seem arbitrary. But if you do, then the units seem very comfortable. 12ga for most typical 20a circuits, 14ga for light, 10ga or thicker for some heavy-duty circuits. Hey boss, we seem to be all out of 3.31mm^2 romex, all I got left is 2.08mm^2. And why did you mention cross-sectional area? Why not radius? or diameter? Or better yet, circumference?…

awg14 or whatever isn't exactly the perfect gauge for whatever application it is used for. It is somewhat arbitrary. A nice metric system of gauges would have 2 mm, 2.5 mm, 3 mm, etc. and there would be still be a nice round number gauge for each application.

Re: The 39th Root of 92

#39
post #13
post #3

I continue to be baffled by the arcane units in the US. This uses a measure on the completely wrong abstraction level. An accidental production process now defines a wire unit instead the end result the consumer/engineer/technician wants to know (mm^2 or inch^2 oh no no it's pica^2 ?). There must be some sociological phenomenon going on that keeps the US from adopting modern units. Maybe can't admit a shortcoming and…

Just like with software, backwards compatibility is a double-edged sword. You can look at almost any land assignment, building or commercial sale ever in the history of the United States and be able to compare / modify / extend it without any conversions. If my great-great-grandfather claimed 160 acres from the Homestead Act, any documentation from that time is just as easily understood today without any conversions.…

> You can look at almost any land assignment, building or commercial sale ever in the history of the United States and be able to compare / modify / extend it without any conversions.

What state? Are those 160 international acres, or 160 US survey acres?

http://www.pobonline.com/articles/91189-from-the-ground-up-t...

What weighs more - an ounce of feathers, or an ounce of gold? (An ounce of gold because gold is measured in Troy ounces...)

Re: The 39th Root of 92

#40
post #3

I continue to be baffled by the arcane units in the US. This uses a measure on the completely wrong abstraction level. An accidental production process now defines a wire unit instead the end result the consumer/engineer/technician wants to know (mm^2 or inch^2 oh no no it's pica^2 ?). There must be some sociological phenomenon going on that keeps the US from adopting modern units. Maybe can't admit a shortcoming and…

I strongly suspect that it was anything but "accidental", but was rather related to just how much you could draw down the diameter of a wire in one step without breaking it.

If you can make a B&S Gauge X+1 wire from a B&S Gauge X wire in one drawing step, while making a metric size N wire from a size M wire requires two drawing steps, that actually matters.

The article alludes to this, but doesn't actually explicitly state it.

Post reply on HN