Superblocks: how Barcelona is taking city streets back from cars • Hacker News Board

Re: Superblocks: how Barcelona is taking city streets back from cars

#111

Post by wutbrodo » Sat, Aug 06, 2016, 9:01 PM UTC

superuser2 wrote: post #102

I feel compelled to dissent against initiatives to directly take cars off the road, rather than improve alternatives. Growing up in the suburbs without a car, I was really excited about carless urban life. Then I actually experienced it (Hyde Park, Chicago). I'm on the opposite corner of the neighborhood from the business districts, so a little errand like CVS or the grocery store is around half an hour by foot each…

Leaving aside the general point that it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to compare "not having a car in a (somewhat) car-oriented city" to "changing car policy in general, with the attendant changes to the city structure down the line":

> I assuaged my claustrophobia by burning either money (Uber) or time to go downtown every few weekends

I don't actually take a lot of Ubers because my area is so well-connected by transit (and dense with commerce), but at least in my case, the idea that Uber is "expensive" as a transport option pales in comparison to the massive cost of owning a car (and paying for parking, maintenance, insurance, etc). Is this not the case for you?

Even with how walkable and transit-friendly my situation is, Uber and car rentals are still a necessary (though occasional) component of my overall transportation budget. Relative to living in a car-oriented area and owning a car, I still end up paying volumes less (as well as having a far, far better transport experience overall in terms of time, convenience, and health).

Re: Superblocks: how Barcelona is taking city streets back from cars

#112

Post by personlurking » Sat, Aug 06, 2016, 9:02 PM UTC

jomamaxx wrote: post #107

superuser2 wrote: post #102

I feel compelled to dissent against initiatives to directly take cars off the road, rather than improve alternatives. Growing up in the suburbs without a car, I was really excited about carless urban life. Then I actually experienced it (Hyde Park, Chicago). I'm on the opposite corner of the neighborhood from the business districts, so a little errand like CVS or the grocery store is around half an hour by foot each…

The problem is not 'bikes v cars'. It's how the city was planned. European cities have small, walkable centers, the mid-density around that, then instead of suburbs, they have a lot of higher density hamlets around them. Also - they don't have horrific winters in which walking/biking is a pain. So - even for Frankfurt, which has a bunch of US style high-rises in the middle ... you can comfortably walk many places, an…

Comparing with Lisbon, it has a small walkable center, no high-rises (except for a few semi high rises in surrounding areas), pretty great weather year-round (over 300 days of sun, I believe), lots of medium-sized plazas/parks and lots of lookout points over the city (both usually with one or more kiosk cafes). All in all, lots of compact green spaces, in addition to a few larger ones (parks and gardens).

On the down side, the slippery cobblestone sidewalks are only big enough for one person, there's a lot of dog "doodoo" on them, and parking is hell (so they tell me). In fact most people in residential neighborhoods just park on the sidewalks (partially if not fully), as well as double-park. People pay parking meters and often even a homeless parking attendent as well.

Luckily, the public transport (metro, bus, train, ferry) is quite good and reliable. I believe the govt was considering adding a downtown tax for cars entering the city center but I forget if that's been enacted. There was also something similar regarding older cars due to being less environmentally friendly.

Re: Superblocks: how Barcelona is taking city streets back from cars

#113

Post by superuser2 » Sat, Aug 06, 2016, 9:04 PM UTC

ethanbond wrote: post #109

superuser2 wrote: post #102

I feel compelled to dissent against initiatives to directly take cars off the road, rather than improve alternatives. Growing up in the suburbs without a car, I was really excited about carless urban life. Then I actually experienced it (Hyde Park, Chicago). I'm on the opposite corner of the neighborhood from the business districts, so a little errand like CVS or the grocery store is around half an hour by foot each…

If you take cars off the roads, people will rebuild (well, reorganize) their cities to account for it. Public transit obviously needs to be better pretty much everywhere in the US, but people also don't want to pay to make it better. I'm a proponent of simply wiping out parking in most areas. That will incentivize people not to drive, therefore to walk/transit, therefore to value the transit systems and the design of…

It takes a LONG time to build out serious transit infrastructure. Like 30 years (see Seattle's recent ballot initiative). You're asking basically an entire generation to have shitty mobility for most of their working lives, so that they will vote to build trains for their children.

More likely they will just leave the cities.

Cities do adapt to poor mobility: local businesses get to charge huge markup because they don't have to compete with the rest of the city. I don't think that's particularly good for consumers.

Re: Superblocks: how Barcelona is taking city streets back from cars

#114

Post by rspeer » Sat, Aug 06, 2016, 9:06 PM UTC

massysett wrote: post #47

"Modern cities are ruled by cars." "Some folks, however, still cling to the old idea that cities are for people," How strange. Every time I see a car, one or more people are in it. I also see other vehicles, such as trucks, that not only have a person in it, they also are carrying things (such as food or building materials) that other people need.

> Every time I see a car, one or more people are in it.

You've never seen a parking lot?

Re: Superblocks: how Barcelona is taking city streets back from cars

#115

Post by Oletros » Sat, Aug 06, 2016, 9:13 PM UTC

dmead wrote: post #88

They're called squares. lots of east coast cities have them except they're smaller and more manageable. for instance, Philadelphia has these: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fitler_Square,_Philadelphia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logan_Circle_(Philadelphia) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Square_(Philadelphi... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rittenhouse_Square not to mention the smaller ones: http://philadelp…

> good luck getting an ambulance into the middle of one of those on a crowded Saturday night.

Crowded?

Re: Superblocks: how Barcelona is taking city streets back from cars

#116

Post by splitrocket » Sat, Aug 06, 2016, 9:17 PM UTC

superuser2 wrote: post #102

I feel compelled to dissent against initiatives to directly take cars off the road, rather than improve alternatives. Growing up in the suburbs without a car, I was really excited about carless urban life. Then I actually experienced it (Hyde Park, Chicago). I'm on the opposite corner of the neighborhood from the business districts, so a little errand like CVS or the grocery store is around half an hour by foot each…

I lived in Hyde Park, Chicago.

I now live in Brooklyn, NY.

Hyde Park is an extremely poor example of a walkable neighborhood. Greenpoint, Brooklyn, however, is substantially more walkable.

I would argue orders of magnitude, but walkscore.com says it's 76 vs 99. Perhaps the scale is logrithmic?

Re: Superblocks: how Barcelona is taking city streets back from cars

#117

Post by dalke » Sat, Aug 06, 2016, 9:18 PM UTC

adrianN wrote: post #100

dalke wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? Sometimes I want to stand. Buses are also great if you have a stroller. Or are in a group. Most buses (at least where I live) are wheelchair accessible. From a utility standpoint, if I have to stand then there are 30 or more others in the same bus. That corresponds to 20+ individual cars. The high density lines go every 10 minutes, with an accordion bus. Assuming worst-case standing is frequent then there's s…

You can also have self-driving busses, you know.

Well, yes. But that's not really tied to the thread is it? I mean, the self-driving bus is going to follow a given route, and not have most of the advantages that throwaway287391 sees in Uber/Lyft.

BTW, I don't know how much you use the bus, but the driver does more than just drive. People ask "is this the bus to X?", or "could you let me know when I've reached Y?" If someone is running for the bus, the driver will sometimes wait a bit. (I've done all of the above.)

I've been on a bus where the side door didn't close. The driver didn't notice it, and started driving away. The passengers told the driver of the problem, who stopped the bus and closed the door manually.

The driver also kicks off people who are too disruptive.

Or wait until the cyclist mounts a bike on the front bike rack before getting into the bus. You wouldn't want an automated bus driving away with someone's bike on it, but without the person inside, would you?

Re: Superblocks: how Barcelona is taking city streets back from cars

#118

Post by ethanbond » Sat, Aug 06, 2016, 9:25 PM UTC

superuser2 wrote: post #113

ethanbond wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you take cars off the roads, people will rebuild (well, reorganize) their cities to account for it. Public transit obviously needs to be better pretty much everywhere in the US, but people also don't want to pay to make it better. I'm a proponent of simply wiping out parking in most areas. That will incentivize people not to drive, therefore to walk/transit, therefore to value the transit systems and the design of…

It takes a LONG time to build out serious transit infrastructure. Like 30 years (see Seattle's recent ballot initiative). You're asking basically an entire generation to have shitty mobility for most of their working lives, so that they will vote to build trains for their children. More likely they will just leave the cities. Cities do adapt to poor mobility: local businesses get to charge huge markup because they do…

You're asking basically every generation after us to have shitty environmental health and shitty cities for the entirety of their lives. Also, if you need a car to be mobile enough to live your life, you already have shitty mobility. You should have the ability to live your life without having to pay the tens of thousands of dollars that owning a car demands [0].

You could get rid of cars and with all that newly available street space add a bunch of electric buses for the interim. You could even up taxi availability and efficacy, seeing as there would be minimal traffic from non-public sources, further reducing the costs of using them. This would also make the city significantly more bike friendly, even before the cultural reorganization into self-sufficient neighborhoods.

There would also be a significantly reduced strain on pretty much every social institution there is. In NYC on August 2nd 2016 alone, the NYPD tended to at least 357 accidents [1]. Reducing this would free up valuable police and medical resources.

Oh, and it will also help to save our species from impending environmental doom.

0. https://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/loans/total-cost-owning-car/

1. https://data.cityofnewyork.us/Public-Safety/NYPD-Motor-Vehic...

Re: Superblocks: how Barcelona is taking city streets back from cars

#119

Post by soci » Sat, Aug 06, 2016, 9:27 PM UTC

kristiandupont wrote: post #61

enjoylife wrote: post #33

I just came back from an extended trip in Barcelona, and I saw first hand how there is plenty of wasted space in neighborhoods. Many intersections between dense housing areas are overly large hexagons where you must annoyingly walk around dedicated parking spaces to cross streets. https://www.flickr.com/photos/16nine/22802717995 Hopefully the city will have buy-in from the residents, as this plan seems to also modify…

In my opinion, those blocks (known as Cerdá's manzanas) create a much nicer space than normal ones. It also seems safer traffic-wise. True, it takes a bit longer to cross as a pedestrian but I think that's worth the price.

As a Barcelona citizen I can not agree more on your comment. Cerdà blocks are much better than regular square corners, as a pederestian those "dead spaces" are a pleasure to walk, and as a driver makes crossroads much safer.

Re: Superblocks: how Barcelona is taking city streets back from cars

#120

Post by superuser2 » Sat, Aug 06, 2016, 9:33 PM UTC

splitrocket wrote: post #116

superuser2 wrote: post #102

I feel compelled to dissent against initiatives to directly take cars off the road, rather than improve alternatives. Growing up in the suburbs without a car, I was really excited about carless urban life. Then I actually experienced it (Hyde Park, Chicago). I'm on the opposite corner of the neighborhood from the business districts, so a little errand like CVS or the grocery store is around half an hour by foot each…

I lived in Hyde Park, Chicago. I now live in Brooklyn, NY. Hyde Park is an extremely poor example of a walkable neighborhood. Greenpoint, Brooklyn, however, is substantially more walkable. I would argue orders of magnitude, but walkscore.com says it's 76 vs 99. Perhaps the scale is logrithmic?

I don't disagree that successful dense, walkable neighorhoods exist. I could have phrased my post better.

What I take issue with is the position advanced in this thread that raising the hassle of owning/operating a car in places like Hyde Park is a good idea, that it will somehow transform those neighborhoods to be more like New York.