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A molecule called ‘Sandman’ could help solve the ‘mystery of sleep’

washingtonpost.com

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Re: A molecule called ‘Sandman’ could help solve the ‘mystery of sleep’

#21

Post by eridius »

montecarl wrote: post #18
outworlder wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but by .5mg of Walgreen's melatonin and even now I rarely take it Does that require a prescription?

You can buy melatonin in a variety of doses over the counter. Its normally near the vitamins and supplements part of the store.

OTC melatonin has fairly unpredictable quality though. The amount of melatonin in the entire bottle might be correct, but the amount in each pill may vary wildly. You can get prescription melatonin that's actually controlled so each pill has the same amount in it.

Re: A molecule called ‘Sandman’ could help solve the ‘mystery of sleep’

#22

Post by dimino »

drzaiusapelord wrote: post #5
daughart wrote: post #2

It would be great if this opened the door to sleep aids that activated the brain's natural sleep induction mechanisms, as opposed to today's sleep aids, which are basically just sedative/CNS depressant/muscle relaxers.

Well, this is what melatonin does and its OTC. My horrible insomnia was cured not by Ambien, but by .5mg of Walgreen's melatonin and even now I rarely take it. Its also probably time we admitted human beings can't fit into lifestyles where they're bombareded with blue light, stress, etc right before bedtime. The Western lifestyle is fairly anti-traditional and old fashioned things like prayer/meditation/whatever befo…

The problem with your "melatonin" suggestion is that there's no way to know how much melatonin you actually took, since there is no regulation on the chemical, and the "sleep pills" that are purchasable don't say on the label what concentration they're made at, and concentrations vary by brand, and could vary bottle to bottle (due to an inexact manufacturing technique, for example).

Re: A molecule called ‘Sandman’ could help solve the ‘mystery of sleep’

#23

Post by duaneb »

omgitstom wrote: post #8

"Sleeping animals are incredibly vulnerable to attacks, with no obvious benefit to make up for it — at best, they waste precious hours that could be used finding food or seducing a mate; at worst, they could get eaten." It seems pretty obvious that sleep had an evolutionary advantage to conserve energy when the species couldn't be productive. For example, human sleep during the night because we can't forage / hunt /…

> For example, human sleep during the night because we can't forage / hunt / find a mate during the night because our vision requires light.

What makes you think the causality is in that direction? This is clearly a teleological argument (read: assumes that everything has a function, which is contradictory to the way evolution works, where the only function is to help your genes propagate).

Re: A molecule called ‘Sandman’ could help solve the ‘mystery of sleep’

#24

Post by outworlder »

omgitstom wrote: post #8

"Sleeping animals are incredibly vulnerable to attacks, with no obvious benefit to make up for it — at best, they waste precious hours that could be used finding food or seducing a mate; at worst, they could get eaten." It seems pretty obvious that sleep had an evolutionary advantage to conserve energy when the species couldn't be productive. For example, human sleep during the night because we can't forage / hunt /…

> because our vision requires light

Even on a new moon, there's plenty of starlight. Nocturnal animals are able to take advantage of that.

Re: A molecule called ‘Sandman’ could help solve the ‘mystery of sleep’

#25

Post by jsprogrammer »

gnaritas wrote: post #15
omgitstom wrote: post #8

"Sleeping animals are incredibly vulnerable to attacks, with no obvious benefit to make up for it — at best, they waste precious hours that could be used finding food or seducing a mate; at worst, they could get eaten." It seems pretty obvious that sleep had an evolutionary advantage to conserve energy when the species couldn't be productive. For example, human sleep during the night because we can't forage / hunt /…

That doesn't seem obvious at all, it presumes sleeping is about conserving energy and that's an unwarranted assumption and baseless assumption. Sleep very well could be a requirement for brains to work they way they do. If you are deprived of sleep you will shortly go crazy; sleep isn't about saving energy. If you see anything that seems obvious, you can bet science already checked that out and moved past it and that…

>If you see anything that seems obvious, you can bet science already checked that out and moved past it and that it's more complicated than that.

Science doesn't do anything. Even if it did, you should be able to look the obvious results up and figure out where current research has taken your question.

Re: A molecule called ‘Sandman’ could help solve the ‘mystery of sleep’

#26

Post by phonon »

eridius wrote: post #21
montecarl wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can buy melatonin in a variety of doses over the counter. Its normally near the vitamins and supplements part of the store.

OTC melatonin has fairly unpredictable quality though. The amount of melatonin in the entire bottle might be correct, but the amount in each pill may vary wildly. You can get prescription melatonin that's actually controlled so each pill has the same amount in it.

Or you can get it in pure powder form and make your own dose (like http://www.powdercity.com/products/melatonin-powder )

Note higher dosing is NOT better...most OTC melatonin supplements give too much. 0.5 to 1.0 mg should be used 1-3 hours before bedtime.

Re: A molecule called ‘Sandman’ could help solve the ‘mystery of sleep’

#27

Post by brazzledazzle »

outworlder wrote: post #20
gnaritas wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't seem obvious at all, it presumes sleeping is about conserving energy and that's an unwarranted assumption and baseless assumption. Sleep very well could be a requirement for brains to work they way they do. If you are deprived of sleep you will shortly go crazy; sleep isn't about saving energy. If you see anything that seems obvious, you can bet science already checked that out and moved past it and that…

Yeah. For starters, there is a whole bunch of toxins that build up when you don't sleep enough. But it can't be the whole story, as why wouldn't we have mechanisms to remove those and keep the brain functioning? It can't be all about memory retention. There are some fascinating studies on how some groups of neurons repeat the same patterns they did when the organism was awake, presumedly for long-term storage. But wh…

I've found that it's best to not think that evolution optimizes for the best thing but rather that it optimizes for "good enough". Sometimes they are one and the same but they don't have to be.

Sleep could have started as a rudimentary adaptation to one thing and ended up being refined and coopted for other things.

Re: A molecule called ‘Sandman’ could help solve the ‘mystery of sleep’

#28

Post by bbctol »

omgitstom wrote: post #8

"Sleeping animals are incredibly vulnerable to attacks, with no obvious benefit to make up for it — at best, they waste precious hours that could be used finding food or seducing a mate; at worst, they could get eaten." It seems pretty obvious that sleep had an evolutionary advantage to conserve energy when the species couldn't be productive. For example, human sleep during the night because we can't forage / hunt /…

Taken on its own, unconsciousness is a massive evolutionary setback--an explanation like "conserves energy" doesn't cut it, when there are plenty of nocturnal predators around. Why didn't humans evolve to lie down at night, with their heartrate and breathing slow, but remain fully aware of their surroundings? That would make survival to reproduction age a lot simpler.

Re: A molecule called ‘Sandman’ could help solve the ‘mystery of sleep’

#29

Post by jnicholasp »

phonon wrote: post #26
eridius wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OTC melatonin has fairly unpredictable quality though. The amount of melatonin in the entire bottle might be correct, but the amount in each pill may vary wildly. You can get prescription melatonin that's actually controlled so each pill has the same amount in it.

Or you can get it in pure powder form and make your own dose (like http://www.powdercity.com/products/melatonin-powder ) Note higher dosing is NOT better...most OTC melatonin supplements give too much. 0.5 to 1.0 mg should be used 1-3 hours before bedtime.

1-3 hours? Do you have a source for that advice? Everything I've read, and my personal experience with it, suggests taking it (as you say, .5 to 1mg) 30 minutes before you want to fall asleep.

Re: A molecule called ‘Sandman’ could help solve the ‘mystery of sleep’

#30

Post by thotpoizn »

drzaiusapelord wrote: post #5
daughart wrote: post #2

It would be great if this opened the door to sleep aids that activated the brain's natural sleep induction mechanisms, as opposed to today's sleep aids, which are basically just sedative/CNS depressant/muscle relaxers.

Well, this is what melatonin does and its OTC. My horrible insomnia was cured not by Ambien, but by .5mg of Walgreen's melatonin and even now I rarely take it. Its also probably time we admitted human beings can't fit into lifestyles where they're bombareded with blue light, stress, etc right before bedtime. The Western lifestyle is fairly anti-traditional and old fashioned things like prayer/meditation/whatever befo…

FYI, I'm a chronic insomnia sufferer, and I also found melatonin was a "miracle cure". Even if/when it didn't help me get to sleep on time, I would still wake up feeling mostly rested and able to function the next day.

Flash forward a couple of years, and it started to catch up to me. In retrospect, I guess it was NOT working a lot more often than it WAS, but I was still able to get up at my normal time and slog through another day... until all of a sudden I wasn't.

I started having a really hard time concentrating, remembering things, etc. I went from being proud I had memorized the first 40 digits of pi, to not being able to remember my own damned zip code.

Frankly, I thought it was early onset Alzheimer's, and I started putting my affairs in order. Initial tests were inconclusive, but that's not necessarily surprising: the simple cognitive tests are only useful for spotting advanced decline if you are even remotely non- "neuro-typical". Fancier (and noisier) brain scans showed nothing unusual.

Anyway, long story short: on medical advice I threw away the melatonin, and practically overnight my symptoms evaporated.

This is all highly anecdotal, I know - and you would be foolish not to be skeptical. But I would suggest that if you are using melatonin regularly, and especially if you have been for a long time... You might want to casually start tracking your actual sleeping hours, and verify that you are really getting enough - and not just "compensating."

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