Humpback whales around the globe are mysteriously rescuing animals from orcas • Hacker News Board

Re: Humpback whales around the globe are mysteriously rescuing animals from orcas

#131

Post by snowwrestler » Fri, Aug 05, 2016, 4:29 AM UTC

Digit-Al wrote: post #117

mundo wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the sacrifices I make for my kids feel like the exact opposite of self-gain. "Do something I want to do" vs "do something the kid would benefit from" is a choice presented to every parent every day. I don't think that the possibility that the latter might have some indirect self-benefit keeps it from being an act of altruism, for any reasonable definition of altruism. I mean, "some kind of evolutionary advant…

That's easy to answer. Taking care of your children is not aultruism, it's a genetic inevitability. Your genes have a 'selfish' desire to propogate themselves into the future. Your children are the means of doing this. To protect this investment your genes have gifted you with hormones that make you a happy and willing slave to these little bundles of genetic immortality. :-)

> Your genes have a 'selfish' desire to propogate themselves into the future.

Common misunderstanding, but this is not true. Genes do not have any desires at all.

Dawkins wrote "The Selfish Gene" to explore a metaphor, not explain how biology actually works. He thought it would be an interesting way of looking at evolution, and he was right. It was so interesting that people started taking him literally.

Anyway, it seems obvious that taking care of kids is not a genetic inevitability, because of the large numbers of parents who fail to do a good job of taking care of their kids.

Re: Humpback whales around the globe are mysteriously rescuing animals from orcas

#132

Post by snowwrestler » Fri, Aug 05, 2016, 4:39 AM UTC

cloverich wrote: post #99

rfrey wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like this point of view is unassailable because for every example that, in regular understanding, would be selfless behaviour, the definition of self-interest is stretched to encompass it. - Anonymous philanthropy => feelings of self worth - Low reward public service (Mother Theresa) => fame and influence - Parents sacrificing personal good for kids => some kind of evolutionary advantage - Falling on a grena…

I agree. I wonder if a better strategy would be to amend the definition of altruism to include doing something for someone else because it makes you feel good. Surely most would agree that "it makes me feel good to help someone" vs "I financially gained from helping someone" are not the same type of "selfishness" (excluding the genetic reductionist explanations).

Since when did the definition of altruism exclude acts just because they make a person feel good?

There seems to some serious latent Puritanism in this discussion.

Re: Humpback whales around the globe are mysteriously rescuing animals from orcas

#133

Post by ookdatnog » Fri, Aug 05, 2016, 5:13 PM UTC

jdimov10 wrote: post #50

Tosh108 wrote: post #42

It's interesting that we have such a hard time accepting the emotion of altruism both in humans and animals. The author of the articles states: "could just be revenge". Revenge is in many ways more senseless then altruism for evolutionary purposes (unless you directly attack killer whales that threaten you, but one could argue that that's a form of self-defence), but from our ego perspective it feels more intuitive,…

I don't deny that altruism exists, but to me it's just another form of egoism. Nobody can convince me that they have ever done anything for ANY other reason than because of the belief that it will be good for them or that they'll get some sort of kick out of it. Not Mother Theresa, not anyone, ever. Because it's not possible. If you don't put your own interests first, you have nothing to give to others anyway. Moreov…

I agree that altrustic acts are prompted by the expected emotional reward that is built into us. In that sense, altruism is selfish. I disagree that this idea of "selfish altruism" means that altruism is not to be respected, that it is hypocrisy, or that it is ok to always chase your own self-interest.

The Prisoner's dilemma shows quite clearly that there exist problems where, if every agent chases their own interests exclusively, all agents end up in a sub-optimal state.

The whole concept of civilization is based on the willingness of individuals to abide by rules, but it's important to realize that following the rules does not benefit you. You expect to benefit from the rules because you expect that other people will also follow the rules. But you following or not following them has almost no impact on the willingness of others to comply. In short, it is in everyone's interest that as many people as possible abide by the law, but it is in no individual's interest to abide by the law as long as they can avoid being caught.

Society wouldn't work if a large chunk of the population were completely unable to put the interests of the collective above their own interests. We'd all be committing exactly the amount of crime we think we could get away with, everyone would be untrustworthy and corrupt.

It doesn't matter why people are altruistic, or that their reasons are ultimately selfish. Altruism should be respected, selflessness should be praised as a virtue. Selfishness should never, ever be praised as a virtue.

Re: Humpback whales around the globe are mysteriously rescuing animals from orcas

#134

Post by anotherdev » Sat, Aug 06, 2016, 3:07 PM UTC

japhyr wrote: post #2

Humpbacks are amazing animals. I live in southeast Alaska, and humpbacks pass through here every spring and fall. They spend their winters in Hawaii where they mate, and they come back here to feed in the spring and summer. When they first arrive in the spring you can see their vertebrae as they arch their back for a dive. After eating all summer, you can see how much they've filled out by the time they pass through…

And they give dolphins rides on their backs for fun. They're just good all around!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lC3AkGSigrA